Book 2 – Text Updates 059

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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lilwik » Fri May 24, 2013 2:17 am

ftl wrote:Parson was ABOUT to cast the spell, but got very conveniently hit on the head with a plank just before he could follow through.

Parson was in a burning room and just spent a large quantity of his limited time chatting with Charlie and toying with his bracer. It would have been contrived if he hadn't been hit by a falling beam. In fact, it's borderline unbelievable luck if the entire building doesn't fall on him, but I'll reserve judgement on that until I see what actually happens.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby ftl » Fri May 24, 2013 2:20 am

Lilwik wrote:
ftl wrote:Parson was ABOUT to cast the spell, but got very conveniently hit on the head with a plank just before he could follow through.

Parson was in a burning room and just spent a large quantity of his limited time chatting with Charlie and toying with his bracer. It would have been contrived if he hadn't been hit by a falling beam. In fact, it's borderline unbelievable luck if the entire building doesn't fall on him, but I'll reserve judgement on that until I see what actually happens.


Of course. But it IS convenient that he got hit at just the right time - not too early and not too late, not too soft and (probably) not too hard. Well, perhaps I should hold out on saying that before we know that the falling beam didn't actually croak him. I'm assuming it didn't.

He got to start casting the spell, see what it was like and what it would do, and then got cut off just before he could actually leave Erfworld.

The meta explanation is that he's the Protagonist and doesn't get to die or leave the story. The in-universe explanation is that it's not his Fate to leave Erfworld, and so as soon as he's about to he gets interrupted.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lipkin » Fri May 24, 2013 2:24 am

ftl wrote:Well, like the one in the last update we got. Where Parson was ABOUT to cast the spell, but got very conveniently hit on the head with a plank just before he could follow through. He got a chance to start casting it, so we the readers could see what it was like to cast, but didn't actually leave Erfworld.

Fate gives the author a perfect vehicle to do stuff like that and have it come across as perfectly natural and have it make sense to us. Rather than people being like "yeah, right, he got lucky in that the plank hit him at JUST the right time, but not hard enough to croak him DEUS EX MACHINA, HOW MANY MORE COINCIDENCES AND ALMOST-CALLS WILL WE GEET" we now go "yeah, makes sense, Fate made sure he stayed in Erfworld".

This.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lipkin » Fri May 24, 2013 2:39 am

Lilwik wrote:
Since I appreciate Occam's Razor I will stick with my theory of passive Fate for now, but I respect your right to use more complicated theories and I recognize that in the end your theory may turn out to be closer to the truth than mine when all the evidence is in.

I can't believe we just legitimately agreed to disagree on the internet. When does that ever happen?

One parting note. It's hard to implement Occam's Razor when we don't even know all the laws of reality for the world. Simple elements known to the characters are unknown to us.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lilwik » Fri May 24, 2013 3:09 am

Lipkin wrote:It's hard to implement Occam's Razor when we don't even know all the laws of reality for the world. Simple elements known to the characters are unknown to us.
That only makes sense if you believe that Occam's Razor is a predictor of truth as many people seem to believe. Then it seems unlikely that Occam's Razor could work without the facts that are obviously important for determining truth. But actually Occam's Razor has nothing to do with truth and all you ever need are whatever facts are available to you. Occam's Razor just says that when two theories both explain the facts that you have, you should choose the simpler theory (in this case, Passive Fate). That has no connection to which theory is right; it's just a matter of which is easier to understand and more pleasant to contemplate.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lipkin » Fri May 24, 2013 3:28 am

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:It's hard to implement Occam's Razor when we don't even know all the laws of reality for the world. Simple elements known to the characters are unknown to us.
That only makes sense if you believe that Occam's Razor is a predictor of truth as many people seem to believe. Then it seems unlikely that Occam's Razor could work without the facts that are obviously important for determining truth. But actually Occam's Razor has nothing to do with truth and all you ever need are whatever facts are available to you. Occam's Razor just says that when two theories both explain the facts that you have, you should choose the simpler theory (in this case, Passive Fate). That has no connection to which theory is right; it's just a matter of which is easier to understand and more pleasant to contemplate.

It's only easier to understand from our perspective, because we don't live in that reality.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Intocabille_CZ » Fri May 24, 2013 5:41 am

Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Intocabille_CZ wrote:4) I also think it would be Fate or someone with help of Fate if the tampering is on the bracer level. They called it artefact several times. And artefacts are made by Titans, if it is made by erfworlders, it is simply a magic item.

When Parson referred to the bracer as an artifact, Sizemore corrected him and said he should call it a magic item because the summoning spell was made by mortals. Of course, he could have been wrong.


I am not so sure they were talking about the bracer. It was at night, before he got the meal with the bracer, he is drawn without the bracer. I believe they were talking about the eyebooks.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F035.jpg

On other hand Charlie refered to it as an artifact. When he said he would like to get it, with Parson if possible. Then again, Charlie could have it mixed up.

Aaand just found the part where he gets the bracer and Sizemore sais it is very powerful, possibly an artifact. So... he still could be wrong and bracer can be magic item, oh well.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F054.jpg
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby themysticalone » Fri May 24, 2013 9:10 am

effataigus wrote:Only the first two things on your list were actually noted. Nobody said "Yes, Jillian is actually using a giant sword because Erfworld" or "Yes Archons can fly without mounts because Erfworld" or anything about it being weird that marbits or megalos fly. These are all things that just are, and no special point has been made about them for our benefit. We're just assumed to be able to dig the fact that Erfworld isn't like Earth. In fact, we only inherently get these things because we have cultural reference points that are distinct from Earth where other authors have already pointed these things out for us. Hence, I don't think any of us are actually using Earth as our reference point, but rather an amalgamation of every sci fy, fantasy, internet meme, videogame, and pun we've ever known... if the bulk happens to have some similarities with Earth then we should not feign surprise, as many of those components are Earth based.


They were noted visually. Noting something isn't always written narration or character dialogue. Sometime is it just being shown that Jillian can wield a big giant sword. Visually being shown something is different is the same thing as noting it.

effataigus wrote:I think the point about drowning was well made. We know nothing about how it works, but I would assume that it would NOT work like it does on Earth. On that note, we only have a vague idea about Erfworld sex. Parson might be in for a rude shock if he ever walks that road.


I assume that if you are underwater and don't have some way of breathing underwater, you have some chance of drowning. Much like here on Earth.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Kreistor » Fri May 24, 2013 9:58 am

Salem wrote:While you are right you're also kind of wrong. You use your history and your feeling victimized to do the same crap. You're emotionally abusive to the members of this forum and you justify it by saying they react poorly to your being rude and mean. Mude. You're very mude.


Okay, I'm rude. Is that your rationalization for other people doing bad things to me the way the word "arrogance" does for most?

It's just another form of "He deserves anything he gets."

"He deserves it because he's rude."

Then I just beat the crap out of my sister and she always got blamed, score!


Not even close. My sister went on to showing her love to her family through physical violence (restrained with children, not with her husband). I've had a life of "Turn the other cheek." One event does not undo a lifetime of learning how to not reciprocate.

I took Drach's attacks for a long time before finally having enough. I turned the other cheek one too many times.

You don't see that, because you don't pay attention to me: you pay attention to you, the way everyone must. You don't know the entire history, just this little bit because it's amusing, or the other major events becaues they are remarkable. This has been going on for over a year.

You call people's ideas stupid


NEVER! NOT EVEN ONCE! NEVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER.

REPORT ME IF I DO.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_1 Here you can find all comic pages written as text for convenient quoting.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Erfworld_Mechanics The starting page for accessing all known Erfworld "rules".
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Denar » Fri May 24, 2013 9:59 am

Hey, anyone notice that the Arkenhammer on today's Erfabet update isn't rendered in 3D? I'm going to go ahead and chuck logic out of the window for this interpretation in the manner that is traditional to the forums... ahem:

Oh my God! It's not the Arkenhammer anymore - it's a fake! Charlie swapped it using an Archon veiled in GK, at some point, a long time ago - this is true because there hasn't been any confirmation that it didn't happen - also coincidentally this is the same Archon that's using Foolamancy to pretend to be the dead Jack (same reasoning)! JACK IS ALIVE WOO!

And I know you're all thinking, hang on, didn't Stanley himself say Jack is dead, which he knows for a fact as he's the Overlord? Well, THINK AGAIN, you pitiable morons! Stanley is himself a fake - it's another Archon using Signamancy (I know that it wasn't in the list of Archon specials, but at the same time, it wasn't explicitly excluded, so anything's a fair game)

(This also explains how "Stanley" could fly up to the throne room and move laterally across the windows - the Arkenhammer can only go up and down! I knew that I couldn't have been wrong about such an important plot point!)

Parson's going to find the real Arkenhammer in the place where the beam fell from. Ace (who is also not dead), put it there. And then he'll use it to put out the inferno!
...
What, you need me to explain how it could do that? Well, duh - Hammers smash wood, wood burns - ipso facto, the Arkenhammer beats fire (I see that you're all confused, you poor, poor imbeciles) Now let me clumsily insert an irrelevant definition from dictionary.com;
Wood, noun.
1.
the hard, fibrous substance composing most of the stem and branches of a tree or shrub, and lying beneath the bark; the xylem.
2.
the trunks or main stems of trees as suitable for architectural and other purposes; timber or lumber.
3.
firewood.

And I'm not going to bother explaining this obvious conclusion any further because it would appear that some previous poster accused me of "chucking logic out of the window"... Goodbye.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby holy_dwead » Fri May 24, 2013 11:46 am

"There must have been a draft coming up from the lower dungeon levels."

How is this possible? Unless there's an opening down there, I don't see how there could be a draft. Remember Gandalf following his nose to get out of Moria? Is anyone else thinking Stanley got the portal is open?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby multilis » Fri May 24, 2013 1:19 pm

holy_dwead wrote:
"There must have been a draft coming up from the lower dungeon levels."

How is this possible? Unless there's an opening down there, I don't see how there could be a draft. Remember Gandalf following his nose to get out of Moria? Is anyone else thinking Stanley got the portal is open?

Yes, air could come from portal but also from any other sort of path from outside the fire, a large fire pulls air like a vacuum cleaner to replace all the very hot air going up. Any direction without either enough fuel or heat to burn (as hot) will do, once air starts flowing in a direction it speeds up faster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestorm "A firestorm is a conflagration which attains such intensity that it creates and sustains its own wind system"

"Candle in the wind" may be blow out, in same way it is possible in an inferno for there to be cool areas near bottom because of the intense suction of air. An extreme firestorm can trigger tornado speed winds, and things can change very rapidly.

(IF the portal suddenly opened and allowed air to flow through with real life sort of physics, there may actually be a strong enough wind to suck unsuspecting mages in magic kingdom who are near the portal into it)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Mogster2 » Fri May 24, 2013 2:28 pm

Edit: too tired when I wrote this. Dunno why I thought it was interesting.
Last edited by Mogster2 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Not Me » Fri May 24, 2013 5:49 pm

Denar wrote:Hey, anyone notice that the Arkenhammer on today's Erfabet update isn't rendered in 3D? I'm going to go ahead and chuck logic out of the window for this interpretation in the manner that is traditional to the forums... ahem:

Oh my God! It's not the Arkenhammer anymore - it's a fake! Charlie swapped it using an Archon veiled in GK, at some point, a long time ago - this is true because there hasn't been any confirmation that it didn't happen - also coincidentally this is the same Archon that's using Foolamancy to pretend to be the dead Jack (same reasoning)! JACK IS ALIVE WOO!

And I know you're all thinking, hang on, didn't Stanley himself say Jack is dead, which he knows for a fact as he's the Overlord? Well, THINK AGAIN, you pitiable morons! Stanley is himself a fake - it's another Archon using Signamancy (I know that it wasn't in the list of Archon specials, but at the same time, it wasn't explicitly excluded, so anything's a fair game)

(This also explains how "Stanley" could fly up to the throne room and move laterally across the windows - the Arkenhammer can only go up and down! I knew that I couldn't have been wrong about such an important plot point!)

Parson's going to find the real Arkenhammer in the place where the beam fell from. Ace (who is also not dead), put it there. And then he'll use it to put out the inferno!
...
What, you need me to explain how it could do that? Well, duh - Hammers smash wood, wood burns - ipso facto, the Arkenhammer beats fire (I see that you're all confused, you poor, poor imbeciles) Now let me clumsily insert an irrelevant definition from dictionary.com;
Wood, noun.
1.
the hard, fibrous substance composing most of the stem and branches of a tree or shrub, and lying beneath the bark; the xylem.
2.
the trunks or main stems of trees as suitable for architectural and other purposes; timber or lumber.
3.
firewood.

And I'm not going to bother explaining this obvious conclusion any further because it would appear that some previous poster accused me of "chucking logic out of the window"... Goodbye.



clap clap clap :mrgreen:

PS: You only missed a few more CAPS in there to prove your points ;)
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lamech » Fri May 24, 2013 8:22 pm

Intocabille_CZ wrote:
Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
Intocabille_CZ wrote:4) I also think it would be Fate or someone with help of Fate if the tampering is on the bracer level. They called it artefact several times. And artefacts are made by Titans, if it is made by erfworlders, it is simply a magic item.

When Parson referred to the bracer as an artifact, Sizemore corrected him and said he should call it a magic item because the summoning spell was made by mortals. Of course, he could have been wrong.


I am not so sure they were talking about the bracer. It was at night, before he got the meal with the bracer, he is drawn without the bracer. I believe they were talking about the eyebooks.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F035.jpg

On other hand Charlie refered to it as an artifact. When he said he would like to get it, with Parson if possible. Then again, Charlie could have it mixed up.

Aaand just found the part where he gets the bracer and Sizemore sais it is very powerful, possibly an artifact. So... he still could be wrong and bracer can be magic item, oh well.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F054.jpg
I don't think its really anything Erfworld has seen before. The magic part or at least the part native to Erf, is next to useless. I mean, it might count as an improvised weapon or something, but not the mighty item it is today. Its only when combined with Parson's watch it produces the power it has now. Parson's watch is what powers the whole deal.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lilwik » Sat May 25, 2013 8:58 pm

ftl wrote:He got to start casting the spell, see what it was like and what it would do, and then got cut off just before he could actually leave Erfworld.
So you don't consider it a contrived coincidence that Parson got hit by a beam, but you consider the timing contrived. In other words, the beam could have fallen at any random time, but some times are more random than other times. That sounds like making something out of nothing to me.

I wonder if the beam could have fallen after he read the scroll and disappeared from Erfworld. It seems unlikely since he has Predicted Fate that surely requires him to stick around for a while longer, and predictamancers seem to feel that no magic can ever make a Prediction wrong. When Parson was in the Magic Kingdom the predictamancers Predicted that he would get through the portal and then acted like it was inevitable even though there was a group of carnymancers standing there and determined to stop it.

On the other hand, Jojo implied that Carnymancy makes it possible to fight Fate and we know that Carnymancy is Fate magic. Not only is Carnymancy aligned with that axis, but we've seen it radically change the course of events by means of magically created improbable coincidence. Marie Lavraie also said that she wasn't surprised Jojo tried to assassinate Parson, which seems strange if Fate says that any assassination attempt will fail. Jojo even explicitly said that the scroll would allow Parson to avoid his Fate, so maybe Parson reading that scroll is beyond the power of Predictamancy to Predict and therefore it actually had a chance of working and it was just luck that the roof happened to fall early enough to stop it.

If Carnymancy is incapable of changing the course of events to make a Prediction false, than I can't believe that neither Jojo nor Charlie know that. That seems like it would be covered in Carnymancer elementary school. Naturally they could both be lying about the scroll's effectiveness when they talk to Parson, but that would imply that they know Fate makes it impossible for the scroll to be read successfully, and if so then why give it to him? Is it possible that Charlie doesn't know about the Predictions for Parson even though there are supposed to be four of them arranged by several separate groups? That seems like a huge intelligence failure for Charlie.

Even though predictamancers seem 100% certain of Predictions 100% of the time, it seems like we need to consider the possibility that Carnymancy really can stop a Prediction from happening. In that case maybe the scroll is actually part of Charlie's plan to kill Parson. Parson's Fate should guarantee that he won't be killed in this fire, but even without reading the scroll having the scroll has caused Parson to waste nearly all the time he had available thinking about the scroll. He was chatting with Charlie about the scroll, then all his toying with his bracer was also caused by the scroll. The scroll may even have been constructed to cause the confusing bracer answers just to waste more time. Without the scroll, Parson might have thought of a way to save himself and maybe that is what Fate expected him to do if this situation arose.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Lipkin » Sat May 25, 2013 9:38 pm

Parson did think of a way to save himself. And it seems like it is going to work.

If my understanding that predicted events are fixed points, it would make sense that Predictamancers would never be wrong. They spend juice to look for fixed points around the person or event they are focusing on. If there are fixed points, then they are fixed and they can't be wrong. If there are not, then there is no fate around the topic, and the predicting fails.

It seems like the scroll could have changed Parson's fate, had he been able to cast it. If he hadn't have had the staff of suckage, Jojo could have just used it and solved Charlie's problems. Parson never got to cast the scroll, so the Carneymancy didn't get a chance to kick in.
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby BakaGrappler » Sun May 26, 2013 5:13 am

Been away for sooooooooo long. I read everything I missed in book 2 in one sitting, so this is gonna be a little disjointed at best.

Charlie made a huge mistake.
He didn't tell Parson to relay the results of the calculation to him. Now Charlie won't know if forcing Parson to cast the spell on himself is an option or not, not without spending yet another calculation.

It looks like Parson now knows the means to casting a spell! He's been enlightened! Or initialized. Or awakened. Or flap-jacked. Whatever term Erfworld would use.

And I really hope there is enough remains of Artemis (and Jack, and Ace) to be decrypted. She deserves to work under a Warlord that will recognize her skills. But then again, an army was raised out of a volcano blast...

Parson's spell.... according to the calculation T/Fs seems to be able to be cast... on someone besides Parson.

I also just realized that the barbarian looking knight from Text Update 50 is from Bauldur's Gate 1! Why didn't I notice it before!?

Sylvia, you went out perfectly. A magnificent, crazy ass psycho death. Rob, I salute you!

And the new scroll on the back wall.... That's the Lookamancer. Misty, right?

The Calculations Artifact. It was made from a magic scroll that was crafted by magicians specifically trying to have Parson come in and save the world from Charlie. It's a biased tool!

I wonder if Adam Antium will get frizzed hair from the fire. Maybe going into two points, one on either side of his head...?
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby Swodaems » Mon May 27, 2013 5:19 pm

This probably counts as minor croakamancy, but I'm going to reply to a statement made back on page 8.
Concerned wrote:I don't understand why everyone is sidestepping the fact that fate is responsible for this. Whether fate is the titans, erfworld itself, the players, the GM or some other force is largely irrelevant.
I think one reason that people were trying to find alternate explanations to the events of this update is that they would prefer if this was story where the events shown are a puzzle meant to be figured out later instead of one where the correct interpretation of the events is simply handed to us right away. Trying to figure out the alternative explanations is a fun mental exercise and there is a chance we will be rewarded for our efforts later when the story proves us correct.

Another reason for wanting a mechanism besides Fate to be responsible for the bracer's output is that we all currently have different notions about fate. Fate is one of those real world topics that people have a lot of different ideas about. Without a detailed analysis of what exactly fate is with regards to Erfworld's story, all I have to fall back on whenever Fate is mentioned in story are the feelings I had about it beforehand. Since I think the real world concept of Fate is a piece of wangsty crock, that is what I think by default whenever fate comes up in a story.


(Note: Link to original post from Concerned (It's so far back I thought it best to include it.))
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Re: Book 2 – Text Updates 059

Postby drachefly » Mon May 27, 2013 6:28 pm

Kreistor wrote:I took Drach's attacks for a long time before finally having enough. I turned the other cheek one too many times.


I am somewhat mystified. Can you link to a few of these attacks? Not simply quotes, so we can find context.
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