Book 2 – Page 111

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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Nygma » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:00 pm

BakaGrappler wrote:
ruleno2 wrote:The trap plan is an extension of this, but relies on Haggar making a bad strategic call by blindly attacking the city, so I don't see it happening.

Which is where the shallow graves and Sizemore's juice come into play. Let's say, for the sake of argument, Haggar's forces decide to send in a scout to check the layout and damage to the military still in the city. I mean, they know Gobwin Knob took Spacerock, and that Jetstone has been completely repulsed. They know there won't be many units left in the place after an inferno. They also know that a capitol site is probably very valuable and worth having. So the scout goes in, just to see what is what, and sees that all that remains is half a stack of infantry, a worn out Dirtamancer, and the tubby Heavy of a Chief Warlord, with less than half a dozen injured Red Dwagons. Ooooh, that's a windfall if ever one has seen one, and a chance to pay GK back for Sammy!

Parson would not have to lure anyone in. The mere lack of strong military presence would draw Haggar into a meatgrinder. And if no one shows, hey, no skin off Parson's nose. No news is good news, right?

This scenario relies on (at least) three things:

1. Haggar is still in the area.
2. They decide to attack Spacerock.
3. Parson anticipates this.

1. As you pointed out, Haggar was still hanging around as of the last discussion between Jillian and Tramennis. Not sure what happened to them after that. Did they continue to hang around? Since we've seen them, Tramennis mopped up the ground forces, went back to Spacerock, conferred with his father, conferred with Charlie, parleyed with Ossomer, the food fight occurred, the battle in the atrium, Tramennis gets injured, Ace and Cubbins outfit Slately, the great air battle and death of Slately, tower comes down, Sylvia vs. Ace... you get the picture. A lot happens, and we don't see Haggar. It's possible they could still be hanging around, even as Jetstone flees.

2. Originally, the plan to attack a weakened side was a great idea. Low risk - they hang back, stay out of the fighting, wait for a good opportunity, if it's not there, no problem - and high reward. Since that plan was made, Sammy gets a sobering wakeup call about just how dangerous GK is, Charlie forces them into conflict which inflicts heavy losses, and they lost their Prince. (It's one thing to headbang as Sammy Haggar is wielding his axe, but just headbanging is silly.) Their capital city has been threatened and is vulnerable. Oh, and GK turns a no-win situation into a victory and Jetstone flees. And they have a Croakamancer who can raise the dead. Nothing about that screams "Haggar is totally going to attack the city!" to me.

3. Ambushes tend to be laid when you think the enemy is coming. Why would Parson think Haggar is coming back, any more than Jetstone is? He has no idea of Haggar's initial plans, even if they were in any shape to carry them out. As he said, they won. Now he needs to see about replenishing GK's devastated ranks again, but going from that to "our enemy knows we can decrypt, and that there have to be a lot of corpses left after a major battle, but we'll HIDE those corpses, trick them into attacking (it could happen!) and then BAZINGA!!"... I just don't see it.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:46 pm

Nygma wrote:Now he needs to see about replenishing GK's devastated ranks again, but going from that to "our enemy knows we can decrypt, and that there have to be a lot of corpses left after a major battle, but we'll HIDE those corpses, trick them into attacking (it could happen!) and then BAZINGA!!"... I just don't see it.
I'm forced to agree with you, but it's still the most plausible theory that I've seen. As amazing as it seems, I've got to conclude that Rob Balder has come up with something that even all of us working together can't think of. It's probably close to one of the ideas that has been suggested, but modified to fix all the issues.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:55 pm

My theory is, he's going to hire that Healomancer, link her up with Wanda, and cast Mass Resurrection. Since it wouldn't quite be the same as Decryption, raising them to full life, it wouldn't have the usual Turnamancy effect, so he'd need Sizemore to build a big dungeon to keep all the Jetstone units in before he raises them and turns them via other means. Probably not a likely theory, but it fits all the requirements.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:11 am

ManaCaster wrote:My theory is, he's going to hire that Healomancer, link her up with Wanda, and cast Mass Resurrection.
Except he wouldn't be calling that genius because it's not a good idea that he's just suddenly come up with. If he's going to do that then he'd have to talk about it with Wanda to determine if it might be possible. This isn't like uncroaking a volcano; this time he clearly already knows in advance that it will work, and if Parson has just come up with the idea now then it must be something that he can do with only his own knowledge, which means no new kinds of magic that we've never seen before.

On top of that, I doubt that it is possible to use magic to actually cheat death in Erfworld. As far as Healomancy is concerned, I'm sure that decrypted units are perfectly healthy. Bringing units fully back to life doesn't seem like something I would expect a Healomancer/Croakamancer link to do, even with the pliers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby BakaGrappler » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:17 am

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the Haggar forces only have half of their movement left. They were still half their move away when the turn started, the go to Exposition Bridge, back to Spacerock, and now they are in enemy lands with less than half their move remaining. They can't get as far away from the city as Jetstone can, so they're going to be left behind in the forced march, behind enemy lines, which COULD be conquered for themselves should the situation be advantageous.

Haggar most likely saw the Inferno and had no notion of where Wanda went during it, which adds the incentive of, "Maybe the Arkenwitch is dead? Then that means we have a chance to snatch up the Arkenpliers!" The Arkentools are a HUGE driving force for competition in Erf, and would be a factor in judgement for any side that would like to see the Decrypted Menace come to an end.

Parson has no idea if he's going to be attacked, but in a war, you should assume you are going to be. I keep saying that, but nobody seems to be registering it. This is the reason military bases lay out mine fields, just in case. And in this case, there is an enemy army within striking distance. So why wouldn't you prepare ambush tactics? Asymmetric warfare depends a lot on overlooked details, and at last count, there were far more Jetstone units remaining than Gobwin Knob, even with fresh corpses. Make plans. Make traps. Prepare ambushes. Because Worst-Case Scenarios have been happening all day.

And I think everyone here is going a little too meta-gaming with the out of character knowledge. Think of the situation like Parson would. "I don't know what's out there, or if anyone is going to attack. If they are going to attack, it would be now, while it is still their turn. I need to be ready to receive an attack. The attack won't be coming from Charlie directly, he's intent on using proxies, so forget Charlie for now. I've promised to go back to the Magic Kingdom later to converse with the Thinkamancers, so forget the portal for now. Right now, the threat is the remaining military presence, whose numbers and abilities I don't know. But they don't know my situation either, it's all fog of war, so I should make some hidden defenses and ambushes while I'm out of sight."
Hey, have you read Shadows of the Evergreen? It's my ErfFic. People say it's pretty good over here, and who am I to argue? Check it out, and then tell me what you think of my hack writing.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ysath » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:25 am

I don't think a city that just got conquered is able to be attacked during the same turn.

As for what Parson wants Sizemore to do, it's very likely to decrypt dusted units, as was said.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby OneHugeTuck » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:30 am

ysath wrote:
As for what Parson wants Sizemore to do, it's very likely to decrypt dusted units, as was said.



On the topic in general: The Arkenpliers are powerful enough. Double dipping the decryption makes them double uber. Decrypting dust ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:39 am

Lilwik wrote:If he's going to do that then he'd have to talk about it with Wanda to determine if it might be possible. This isn't like uncroaking a volcano; this time he clearly already knows in advance that it will work, and if Parson has just come up with the idea now then it must be something that he can do with only his own knowledge, which means no new kinds of magic that we've never seen before.

He said "Maybe", not "Yes, I've got a genius idea that's definitely going to work". He already knows the basics of how Croakamancy works, and he may well have gotten a glimpse of what Healomancy does with his new caster senses, observing that Healomancer's work. There are ways for Parson to get a basis for such a hypothesis.

Lilwik wrote:On top of that, I doubt that it is possible to use magic to actually cheat death in Erfworld.

I never said it was likely, but sure it's possible, even if it's just the Titans who can do it. And as far as mortals go, the Arkenpliers come pretty darned close.

Lilwik wrote:As far as Healomancy is concerned, I'm sure that decrypted units are perfectly healthy. Bringing units fully back to life doesn't seem like something I would expect a Healomancer/Croakamancer link to do, even with the pliers.

Well, we don't really know anything about how the decrypted function, but that doesn't come into it. Croakamancers have an extremely thorough understanding of the body. They can't bring the dead back to life, but they can repair some of the damage, know the best techniques to "preserve the fuel of the body" and how to give it a semblance of life. We know a lot less about how Healomancy works, but Faq's casters speculated that it dispels "illusions of injury" or spends juice to repay a "Life debt". It might be enough to bridge the gap between false life and actual life.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Mon Jun 24, 2013 2:11 am

ManaCaster wrote:He said "Maybe", not "Yes, I've got a genius idea that's definitely going to work".
You may be right, but to me it sounds like the only reason for the "maybe" is his uncertainty over whether his idea is genius. I have no real doubts that he knows his idea will work.

ManaCaster wrote:He already knows the basics of how Croakamancy works, and he may well have gotten a glimpse of what Healomancy does with his new caster senses, observing that Healomancer's work. There are ways for Parson to get a basis for such a hypothesis.
Even if he could get the hypothesis that way, he'd still want to confirm it by asking Wanda. He wouldn't jump ahead to asking about Sizemore's juice until he knew the most doubtful step in his plan was possible.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:03 am

Lilwik wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:He already knows the basics of how Croakamancy works, and he may well have gotten a glimpse of what Healomancy does with his new caster senses, observing that Healomancer's work. There are ways for Parson to get a basis for such a hypothesis.
Even if he could get the hypothesis that way, he'd still want to confirm it by asking Wanda. He wouldn't jump ahead to asking about Sizemore's juice until he knew the most doubtful step in his plan was possible.

Though I admit that this makes a certain amount of logical sense, I must assert that this is a story and can therefore be subject to arranging things in the dramatic way! Discussing with Wanda whether or not something will work could easily kill it!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Hidden Sanity » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:54 am

Okay... insane tinfoil hat theory time that might just be insane enough to be right... then again, it's 2 AM here.

So, the Capital site they're on is not Jetstone's original; they got it after conquering another side. That means they're on the capital site of a side that is now dead, or 'croaked'.

Want Something big to uncroak? How about a side?


Okay, I'll go to bed now.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Urf » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:56 am

Jetstone still exists because Tremmenis escaped as Heir.

What if Parson has Sizemore cast the Carnymancer scroll on the city of Spacerock?

Might qualify as genius AND a surprise.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby effataigus » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:22 am

Urf wrote:Jetstone still exists because Tremmenis escaped as Heir.
He's referring to Spacerock the (former) Side, not Jetstone.

Swodaems wrote:By the way, what happened to Lacrosse? I don't remember seeing him go down, but he doesn't appear to have survived.
He ded (and probably decrypted). Check out panel 2, lower right corner. Hard to say for certain, but might have even been killed by Antium: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-04.jpg

My thinking on the various theories:

I'm not sold on any one.

Attacking Chalescomm through TMK... 15%
Pros: genius, in keeping with Parson's desires, and passes all tests but one.
Cons: crazy ultra-risky, requires getting help from TMK (and nobody wants to sit through that conversation), and fails test of needing Sizemore before decryption (unless Parson wants to try his failed tunnel plan again).

Attacking TMK directly... 5%
Pros: mostly genius... huge power to be gained from it.
Cons: crazy ultra-risky, and fails the tests of Parson's character and the need for a dirtamancer before decryption.

... though considerably more likely if narrowed to a targeted strike on that group of Carnymancers dumb enough to fight with their fists, or even just Jeftichew. Man, that would also knock TMK down a rung or two, and put Parson in a much better position to talk to TGMTTA without fear of them trying to bully him. Torture chamber be damned, a decrypted Jeftichew would have a lot of interesting things to say, I'm sure. Lastly, "they started it!"

Decrypt dusted corpses through a linkup... 15%
Pros: genius, in keeping with Parson's desires, and passes all tests.
Cons: Story-telling. Yet more fuel for the "Tri-link=Deus Ex" and "Arkentools are OP" bitching, and there will be less drama when there are no consequences for anyone other than Wanda dying.

Building a firewall... 5%
Pros: arguably passes all tests if you believe that Charlie needs to see Wanda decrypting bodies to know that she will.
Cons: what does this even mean? In the past, this kind of stuff (rebuilding/fortifying) was fiat-ed in between-book text updates.

Buried body trap... 10%
Pros: might entice Haggar to attack. Passes all tests.
Cons: not sufficiently interesting or high stakes for how many panels it would take to show this going down. A careful consideration of movement and the location of Expo Bridge suggests that GK can hunt down Haggar on their next turn anyway. Also, Haggar knows about decryption... their CWL was killed at the command of a decrypted prince of Jetstone. If nothing else, they'd know better than to attack any column with Wanda: a couple lucky red dwagon breaths and they'd be fighting an army of their own men. Hiding their forces could also possibly be done better by a (single target decryption) decrypted Jack.

Rez the city of Spacerock with a linkup...15%
Pros: passes all tests. Could be done quickly within the span of a page or two.
Cons: a lot of drama for a couple schmuckers saved. Also it would be another big hullabaloo made about a tri-caster linkup. Finally, GK had plenty of opportunities to try doing this with all of the cities that they already rebuilt.

Rez the side of Spacerock with a linkup... 5%
Pros: totally out of the box, arguably passes all tests.
Cons: I don't see how this could be a good thing for Parson or GK.

Get bodies out of Spacerock through a tunnel or reshaped city so someone can start a new side... 0%
Pros: Passes all tests, though arguably not in Parson's or GK's interests.
Cons: Do we believe that it is necessary to have dead bodies outside of the city to start a new side?

Of course, there's always...
The next update is a text update with notes describing some rule we didn't know, that Parson then abuses the update after... 30% :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ftl » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:10 pm

Another option:

Negotiate with Tramennis, the safe return of their dead in exchange for alliance. (Either the safe return of the bodies in non-decrypted state, so as not to "defile" them, or reanimate them and have them turn back to Jetstone).

Genius move? Maybe! Alliance with Jetstone would sort of come with alliance or at least a non-aggression pact with the rest of the RCC, since Jetstone was the leader. Nobody expects it, that's for sure. And it could pay off big, if it leaves GK able to consolidate its gains and move on Charlie instead of getting now bogged down with more fights with Jetstone, FAQ, Transylvito, etc... all of which would be proxy wars against Charlie anyway.

Requires sizemore's juice? Yes! Either to move all the bodies to keep them from depopping, or to build a dungeon to house the prisoners until they can be returned.

Requires holding off on decryption? Yes, until the negotiation is done and they know whether to decrypt the bodies as normal or to return them to Jetstone.

Additional meta-level comments: I would hope the genius move isn't another link, because they seem to be the default genius game-change move, and that's just not fun. Also, a lot of time was spent billing Tramennis as a negotiator, and we haven't seen a successful negotiation out of him yet, so maybe there's one upcoming.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Somna » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:58 pm

Actually, now that I think about it, they can't (successfully) do a link because Charlie is most likely shutting down all Thinkamancy in the hex with the Arkendish.

Note Maggie's comment about interference, the abruptly cutoff Thinkagram previously, and Parson's conclusion that Charlie shut down all their cross-hex communications when he was arguing with Charlie.

Maybe Parson wants Sizemore to write something in the air with dirt.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Swodaems » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:29 pm

effataigus wrote:
Swodaems wrote:By the way, what happened to Lacrosse? I don't remember seeing him go down, but he doesn't appear to have survived.
He ded (and probably decrypted). Check out panel 2, lower right corner. Hard to say for certain, but might have even been killed by Antium: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-04.jpg

I'm already aware he was killed by Antium. There is proof that he was decrypted and was waiting with Wanda and Jack at the Spacerock portal before they entered the Magic Kingdom. I can't find what happened to him after that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lilwik » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:39 pm

ftl wrote:Negotiate with Tramennis, the safe return of their dead in exchange for alliance.
That's a clever idea! Unfortunately I seriously doubt that Jetstone would ever ally with a powerful nonroyal side. Tramennis may be thoughtful and clever, but he's still a Jetstone royal, and I can't believe that Parson thinks Tramennis might take that sort of deal for the sake of units that are already dead. If Parson could send a thinkagram to ask about that right now then he might just ask, but that doesn't seem to be what he's doing.

ftl wrote:I would hope the genius move isn't another link, because they seem to be the default genius game-change move, and that's just not fun.
Uncroaking the volcano was never presented as a genius move. Parson didn't even think it would work; it was just a last desperate thing to try instead of losing the city. This seems like an entirely different situation.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby effataigus » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:56 pm

Swodaems wrote:
effataigus wrote:
Swodaems wrote:By the way, what happened to Lacrosse? I don't remember seeing him go down, but he doesn't appear to have survived.
He ded (and probably decrypted). Check out panel 2, lower right corner. Hard to say for certain, but might have even been killed by Antium: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-04.jpg

I'm already aware he was killed by Antium. There is proof that he was decrypted and was waiting with Wanda and Jack at the Spacerock portal before they entered the Magic Kingdom. I can't find what happened to him after that.
Ah. Beats me then!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Whispri » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:11 pm

He pretty much has to have been incapacitated or killed again realistically speaking, as he didn't join the fight in the throne room.

Lilwik wrote:
Whispri wrote:So yeah, losing her family and Side to machinations of their most hateful enemy Delphie Temple?
I guess that is meant ironically, but it should probably still be highlighted for clarity that Delphie's plan wasn't actually the cause of Goodminton's destruction. Delphie's plan came within an inch of saving Goodminton from an otherwise dire situation. They had the deal in writing on Overlord Firebaugh's desk and all they had to do was agree to it, and that was where Delphie's machinations lead; the rest of it was taken out of her hands.

You guessed incorrectly. In the unlikely event that Delphie's plan was viable (pretty disbanding unlikey given that Olive Branch was involved), it failed... because of Delphie Temple. She was a known liar who leaked information to the enemy, who in their right mind would trust her? And did you notice how she'd always argue for the course of action that was most beneficial for Haffaton? Like keeping Wanda at the Capital instead of marching on Goodfinger, Haffaton would have held the City if she hadn't been ignored. Boop it, her whole deal with Haffaton, by rejecting the offer Delphie wanted them to take, Goodminton received better terms!

She got Tommy killed by shouting the odds about WandaxOlive. And if she hadn't spooked him into trying to Turn Olive, why, Wanda might have gone with her that night in Kiloton. She did something similar by leaving that note for Gillian, if not for that, she'd have gone on trying to find out how Goodminton fell and if she'd done that... Delphie interrupted her when she was making the right choices. The worst though, is that she was able to leave a note for Gillian. She knew the Side was about to be attacked... and said nothing. She was an enemy in all but name.

ManaCaster wrote:
Whispri wrote:He'd be turning a phyrric victory into something more beneficial.

You could say the same thing about just plain decrypting the corpses, and that isn't genius. This theory hardly qualifies as game breaking in my book, but we'll see.

Not really, they've lost 5-7 times as many Units as there are useable bodies in the City (well over a thousand at the bridge, the air group (scores of Dwagons, plus riders, plus Archons), all the defenders at Progrock and possibly Brookstone as well).

ftl wrote:Negotiate with Tramennis, the safe return of their dead in exchange for alliance. (Either the safe return of the bodies in non-decrypted state, so as not to "defile" them, or reanimate them and have them turn back to Jetstone).

Why would Parson trust Tramennis?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ftl » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:18 pm

Because in erfworld, you can make alliances be magically binding, with penalties. It's pretty easy to trust someone will hold up their end of the bargain if you have rule-based guaranteed enforcement of a penalty if they don't.
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