Book 2 – Page 111

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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby LordAcme » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:28 pm

Lilwik wrote:
dholm wrote:Given that she did not believe what Delphie said regarding Predictamancy, that was never going to happen--and Delphie directly created that mistrust by her actions.
Yes, but it was never going to happen because of Wanda's failure to be a good chief caster who made the most of her resources, and even inexperienced Wanda should have realized that Predictamancers are best used as sources of intelligence.

dholm wrote:Again, given the intelligence she possessed -- intelligence as in information, not as in IQ -- Wanda's advice was sound.
Wanda possessed Delphie and Delphie contained more than enough intelligence for Wanda to have given advice that would have saved Goodminton. That Wanda chose not to take advantage of that was a failure in her duty as chief caster. Of course, Overlord Firebaugh should never have made Wanda chief caster.


I think Wanda gets a pass on the whole "should have been Napoleon + Patton" thing. At that time she was literally still a babe in the woods. Her total age was measured in weeks, not even months. Look at other casters who were around for much longer and check their performance. That Wanda did anything at all is remarkable.

Now, Book 1 Wanda is a whole 'nother story. But that proves the old saying "Good judgment comes from experience. But most experience comes from bad judgment". After reading Book 0, we know where her experience comes from.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Tathar » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:11 am

I was thinking maybe Parson would try to use his new magic sense as an excuse to try a link-up, but then I realized that you have to know what your discipline is, or else the link won't work, per how the casters address each other in the link. I don't think Parson knows his discipline at this point.

Also, what's with all of the people thinking Parson's going to try to invade the MK? That makes no sense.

I do think that Parson's "magic sense" revelation is going to play a role here, but I don't know how yet. It would be odd storytelling for Rob to decide not to use a newly revealed fact to advance the plot.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Tathar » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:28 am

Urf wrote:Is there a way to alter the terrain type of a hex in a such a way that creates endless Night?

Probably, but it would require a unit based on one or more Touhou characters stopping time and creating an Imperishable Night.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Tathar » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:32 am

ftl wrote:Another option:

Negotiate with Tramennis, the safe return of their dead in exchange for alliance. (Either the safe return of the bodies in non-decrypted state, so as not to "defile" them, or reanimate them and have them turn back to Jetstone).

Genius move? Maybe! Alliance with Jetstone would sort of come with alliance or at least a non-aggression pact with the rest of the RCC, since Jetstone was the leader. Nobody expects it, that's for sure. And it could pay off big, if it leaves GK able to consolidate its gains and move on Charlie instead of getting now bogged down with more fights with Jetstone, FAQ, Transylvito, etc... all of which would be proxy wars against Charlie anyway.

Requires sizemore's juice? Yes! Either to move all the bodies to keep them from depopping, or to build a dungeon to house the prisoners until they can be returned.

Requires holding off on decryption? Yes, until the negotiation is done and they know whether to decrypt the bodies as normal or to return them to Jetstone.

Additional meta-level comments: I would hope the genius move isn't another link, because they seem to be the default genius game-change move, and that's just not fun. Also, a lot of time was spent billing Tramennis as a negotiator, and we haven't seen a successful negotiation out of him yet, so maybe there's one upcoming.

This one works for me. It seems in the cards for GK and Jetstone to eventually ally together. It's just a matter of when and under what circumstances.
Beeskee wrote:I was reluctant to assume Charlie was the Wizard, since it seems like if a butterfly farts in an unmapped hex, we're all ready to assume it's somehow part of Charlie's grand schemes to control the wind or whatever.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby effataigus » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:08 am

LordAcme wrote:That Wanda did anything at all is remarkable.
I don't think the blame is on Wanda's tactical assessment. I think the blame is on her presumption that her assessment was better than those of her more knowledgeable advisers. In this case, that she overrode someone with literal knowledge of the future was remarkably unwise.

Looking at book 1 and 2 we see time and again that Wanda is a skilled tactician who needs to learn how to defer to even better tacticians. Just not Stanley :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby El_Chupacabra » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:27 pm

Attacking Chalescomm through TMK... 15%
Pros: genius, in keeping with Parson's desires, and passes all tests but one.
Cons: crazy ultra-risky, requires getting help from TMK (and nobody wants to sit through that conversation), and fails test of needing Sizemore before decryption (unless Parson wants to try his failed tunnel plan again).


Yeah, would require some sort of sneak -- like piling up all the dirt of the dusted and transporting it to just before CC's Portal. Also would require some intelligence that would suggest CC's Portal Room and Garrison were extremely weak and a decapitation strike would have a high chance of success.

Above that -- I'll say 0% because Charlie won't be defeated in this book. Probably not the next two, unless we start seeing hints at something more dangerous. He may not be The Big Bad, but he's up there. Considering this was the "Great Western Conflict", there's definitely room for a Bigger Bad, but that would not make Charlie a Two-Book wonder.

Attacking TMK directly... 5%
Pros: mostly genius... huge power to be gained from it.
Cons: crazy ultra-risky, and fails the tests of Parson's character and the need for a dirtamancer before decryption.

... though considerably more likely if narrowed to a targeted strike on that group of Carnymancers dumb enough to fight with their fists, or even just Jeftichew. Man, that would also knock TMK down a rung or two, and put Parson in a much better position to talk to TGMTTA without fear of them trying to bully him. Torture chamber be damned, a decrypted Jeftichew would have a lot of interesting things to say, I'm sure. Lastly, "they started it!"


I'll give 20% if it's explicitly a "Grab and Go" or other scenario, 0% if an invasion or other permanent presence. TMK is another Book entirely, much like the above. But perhaps some justifiable grab of CC allies in order to gather information or a propaganda coup?

Decrypt dusted corpses through a linkup... 15%
Pros: genius, in keeping with Parson's desires, and passes all tests.
Cons: Story-telling. Yet more fuel for the "Tri-link=Deus Ex" and "Arkentools are OP" bitching, and there will be less drama when there are no consequences for anyone other than Wanda dying.


I'll go 20% or more. Why? The entire goal appears to be for Parson to "break the game" entirely. How better than to at least damage the assurance of permadeath? Plus, that's a massive propaganda bonus if Parson could turn to enemies and say, "Hey, no hard feelings, here's your people back. Just don't get in our way or you won't get survivors back."

Building a firewall... 5%
Pros: arguably passes all tests if you believe that Charlie needs to see Wanda decrypting bodies to know that she will.
Cons: what does this even mean? In the past, this kind of stuff (rebuilding/fortifying) was fiat-ed in between-book text updates.


Eh, could make for the first Level 6 or 7 Capitol? Or something that at least assures that CC or others won't interfere while GK gets back on its feet. But yeah, the vagueness makes this an oddball option.

Buried body trap... 10%
Pros: might entice Haggar to attack. Passes all tests.
Cons: not sufficiently interesting or high stakes for how many panels it would take to show this going down. A careful consideration of movement and the location of Expo Bridge suggests that GK can hunt down Haggar on their next turn anyway. Also, Haggar knows about decryption... their CWL was killed at the command of a decrypted prince of Jetstone. If nothing else, they'd know better than to attack any column with Wanda: a couple lucky red dwagon breaths and they'd be fighting an army of their own men. Hiding their forces could also possibly be done better by a (single target decryption) decrypted Jack.


Not so much for Haggar, specifically. But maybe more in general -- in anticipation of attacks from multiple potential aggressors. Problem is, I suspect instant deterrence is going to be more valued than potential ambush, so unless this is combined with, say, the decryption of dusted linkup scenario, I'd doubt this.

Rez the city of Spacerock with a linkup...15%
Pros: passes all tests. Could be done quickly within the span of a page or two.
Cons: a lot of drama for a couple schmuckers saved. Also it would be another big hullabaloo made about a tri-caster linkup. Finally, GK had plenty of opportunities to try doing this with all of the cities that they already rebuilt.


Hm... I'd bump this one MUCH higher... Considering all the previous considerations Parson had for avoiding having to wander a city just so things would produce? Also, this may be unique compared to previous cities -- possibly this only came to Parson's mind now? Or perhaps the needed people were not with Wanda on the previous cities.

Rez the side of Spacerock with a linkup... 5%
Pros: totally out of the box, arguably passes all tests.
Cons: I don't see how this could be a good thing for Parson or GK.


Agreed -- would require some HEAVY exposition as to the value of that side. Unless somehow it managed to "Start" Parson as the head of a side with some bizarre characteristics, like No Upkeep.

Get bodies out of Spacerock through a tunnel or reshaped city so someone can start a new side... 0%
Pros: Passes all tests, though arguably not in Parson's or GK's interests.
Cons: Do we believe that it is necessary to have dead bodies outside of the city to start a new side?


Erm. I think this one's oversimplification of the scenario; there may be other reasons to transport bodies pre-decryption. Possibly Parson hands over disarmed decrypted as a sort of "Prisoner Swap" to Tramennis? With explicit instruction to advise Trem as to the nature of CC?

The next update is a text update with notes describing some rule we didn't know, that Parson then abuses the update after... 30%


Yup. With the caveat that the rule would at least be related to some of the previous pages, so it wouldn't be total Deus Ex.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Whispri » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:37 pm

Lilwik wrote:Delphie's only failure was in failing to manipulate Overlord Firebaugh into taking the deal that would have saved Goodminton. The Overlord had a peace treaty on his desk and chose not to sign it, then the side was destroyed a few turns later. Now we can either choose to blame the Overlord for making the wrong choice, or we can blame the Overlord's subjects for failing to manipulate the Overlord into making the right choice. I prefer the former, but if you insist upon the latter, then you still have two choices: you can either blame Delphie who tried and failed to get the Overlord to make the right choice, or you can blame Wanda who tried to get the Overlord to make the wrong choice.

With all of those choices, are you sure you really want to blame Delphie? To me she seems the least responsible for the destruction of Goodminton.

And that boy who kept crying wolf, if only they'd listened to him!

ManaCaster wrote:My point is, being beneficial is not the same thing as being genius. If capitals really automatically switch when the current one falls, using that solution would be incredibly obvious to even a total moron like Stanley. For something to qualify as a genius move, it would have to be "lateral" or out of the box.

Pulling a stunt Charlie was calling impossible? Smart enough in my book.

ftl wrote:Wait, when has RCC ever broken an alliance with GK? When have they ever *had* an alliance with GK in the first place?

I didn't think the RCC ever did much *back*stabbing on GK, it was mostly just straight-up stabbing because they never were in anything other than a state of war.

Yeah, so various RCC members have attacked in response to signals for parley (the new King of Jetstone had a good laugh about that), attacked during parley, reached terms than broken them moments later, have refused every offer of peace, approved of a Ruler slaughtering her own people rather than accept peace and in Jetstone's case, have a reputation for using parely purely as a form of insult. So yeah, why waste time offering them another chance of alliance after they've violently rejected every prior attempt?

Not for lack of talking on the part of Gobwin Knob. But, yes, the RCC is clearly hell bent on war. Gobwn Knob can't negotiate with Jetstone and they know it.

effataigus wrote:I don't think the blame is on Wanda's tactical assessment. I think the blame is on her presumption that her assessment was better than those of her more knowledgeable advisers. In this case, that she overrode someone with literal knowledge of the future was remarkably unwise.

Looking at book 1 and 2 we see time and again that Wanda is a skilled tactician who needs to learn how to defer to even better tacticians. Just not Stanley :D

Thing is, leaving aside Delphie's treachery, they captured three Cities by ignoring her advice to keep Wanda in the Capital. By ignoring her advice to take the first peace offer, they were offered far better terms, that included the gift of a City. It was Delphie ignoring Wanda's instinct to keep the OlivexWanda stuff quiet that got Tommy killed(and torpedoed any chance of a deal). And this is all presuming that Frenemy and Quisling wouldn't have launched an attack with overwhelming force before the ink had time to dry.

There's a strong case for saying the Side survived for as long as possible in the circumstances. Thanks to Wanda, not to the self-confessed liar with a history of providing bad advice, who leaked her Predictions to Olive Branch.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby LordAcme » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:28 pm

effataigus wrote:
LordAcme wrote:That Wanda did anything at all is remarkable.
I don't think the blame is on Wanda's tactical assessment. I think the blame is on her presumption that her assessment was better than those of her more knowledgeable advisers. In this case, that she overrode someone with literal knowledge of the future was remarkably unwise.

Looking at book 1 and 2 we see time and again that Wanda is a skilled tactician who needs to learn how to defer to even better tacticians. Just not Stanley :D


Well yes. The point was she had only weeks of experience and that wasn't enough to grant her the wisdom to outmaneuver people who were more knowledgeable, but proven unreliable (not to mention unlikable).

My point is you can't blame her for a lack of experience when she hadn't had the opportunity to gain it. All of her actions then stemmed from her perception of Duty and the urgings of her own Loyalty. Totally gets a pass.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby LordAcme » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:31 pm

Whispri wrote:
Lilwik wrote:Delphie's only failure was in failing to manipulate Overlord Firebaugh into taking the deal that would have saved Goodminton. The Overlord had a peace treaty on his desk and chose not to sign it, then the side was destroyed a few turns later. Now we can either choose to blame the Overlord for making the wrong choice, or we can blame the Overlord's subjects for failing to manipulate the Overlord into making the right choice. I prefer the former, but if you insist upon the latter, then you still have two choices: you can either blame Delphie who tried and failed to get the Overlord to make the right choice, or you can blame Wanda who tried to get the Overlord to make the wrong choice.

With all of those choices, are you sure you really want to blame Delphie? To me she seems the least responsible for the destruction of Goodminton.

And that boy who kept crying wolf, if only they'd listened to him!

ManaCaster wrote:My point is, being beneficial is not the same thing as being genius. If capitals really automatically switch when the current one falls, using that solution would be incredibly obvious to even a total moron like Stanley. For something to qualify as a genius move, it would have to be "lateral" or out of the box.

Pulling a stunt Charlie was calling impossible? Smart enough in my book.

ftl wrote:Wait, when has RCC ever broken an alliance with GK? When have they ever *had* an alliance with GK in the first place?

I didn't think the RCC ever did much *back*stabbing on GK, it was mostly just straight-up stabbing because they never were in anything other than a state of war.

Yeah, so various RCC members have attacked in response to signals for parley (the new King of Jetstone had a good laugh about that), attacked during parley, reached terms than broken them moments later, have refused every offer of peace, approved of a Ruler slaughtering her own people rather than accept peace and in Jetstone's case, have a reputatoin for using parely puirely as a form of insult. So yeah, why waste time offering them another chance of alliance after they've violently rejected every prior attempt?

Not for lack of talking on the part of Gobwin Knob. But, yes, the RCC is clearly hell bent on war. Gobwn Knob can't negotiate with Jetstone and they know it.

effataigus wrote:I don't think the blame is on Wanda's tactical assessment. I think the blame is on her presumption that her assessment was better than those of her more knowledgeable advisers. In this case, that she overrode someone with literal knowledge of the future was remarkably unwise.

Looking at book 1 and 2 we see time and again that Wanda is a skilled tactician who needs to learn how to defer to even better tacticians. Just not Stanley :D

Thing is, leaving aside Delphie's treachery, they captured three Cities by ignoring her advice to keep Wanda in the Capital. By ignoring her advice to take the first peace offer, they were offered far better terms, that included the gift of a City. It was Delphie ignoring Wanda's instinct to keep the OlivexWanda stuff quiet that got Tommy killed(and torpedoed any chance of a deal). And this is all presuming that Frenemy and Quisling wouldn't have launched an attack with overwhelming force before the ink had time to dry.

There's a strong case for saying the Side survived for as long as possible in the circumstances. Thanks to Wanda, not to the self-confessed liar with a history of providing bad advice, who leaked her Predictions to Olive Branch.


...I'ma shuttup now and let you handle it :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:15 pm

Whispri wrote:
ManaCaster wrote:My point is, being beneficial is not the same thing as being genius. If capitals really automatically switch when the current one falls, using that solution would be incredibly obvious to even a total moron like Stanley. For something to qualify as a genius move, it would have to be "lateral" or out of the box.

Pulling a stunt Charlie was calling impossible? Smart enough in my book.

Would Isaac Newton saying three story houses are impossible make building one genius? Besides, Charlie didn't say creating a new side was impossible. Just that it would be very hard to do so as a way to escape the inferno, since there were units of a different side around, including red dwagons that are out of Parson's reach and will survive the inferno.

Even assuming that losing the current capital results in an automatic switch to some random different capital on the same side, there is nothing genius about exploiting that. And since Stanley thought he would have to journey all the way out there to switch the capital back, and Parson admitted that it was a huge favor, that kinda points against things actually working like that. There has to be some sort of huge inconvenience to losing your current capital on a multi-capital side.

Look, if you're just trying to find a way to justify Parson starting his own side, there are better ways to do it. There are all sorts of exploits you could create by having two tightly allied sides, like popping unlimited casters by having any popped by the child side turn to the parent side and sharing usage for instance, so it has to happen eventually. But if it was going to happen this turn, the thematically appropriate moment would have been during the inferno, a time that passed and went.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Aquillion » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:09 pm

Tathar wrote:Also, what's with all of the people thinking Parson's going to try to invade the MK? That makes no sense.
It doesn't make sense, no, but it's also an obvious exploit that would very likely work according to the rules as they've been described to us, which Parson is in a position to take advantage of right now. I don't think he's likely to either (at least not right now), partially because he doesn't seem to have much reason to and partially because it seems unlikely to work without at least some political pretext to prevent the Magic Kingdom from uniting against him; but I can see why people are speculating about it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it pulled at some point down the road.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lipkin » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:56 am

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-31.png

I just spent a lot of time looking for this update. Couldn't remember which is was. But I want to talk about it. Originally, I wanted to talk about it because I thought all the mention of turns could be foreshadowing to someone turning, possible Parson. But I misremembered exactly what was said on the subject.

However, there is a lot of good stuff in this update. Talk about both fate, and Sizemore. Worth examining again.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Althernai » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:14 am

Aquillion wrote:It doesn't make sense, no, but it's also an obvious exploit that would very likely work according to the rules as they've been described to us, which Parson is in a position to take advantage of right now. I don't think he's likely to either (at least not right now), partially because he doesn't seem to have much reason to and partially because it seems unlikely to work without at least some political pretext to prevent the Magic Kingdom from uniting against him; but I can see why people are speculating about it, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it pulled at some point down the road.

I suppose it is possible, but I very much doubt it. Leaving the mechanics aside, it goes completely against Parson's methods. He describes them in this page. Invading the Magic Kingdom is the exact opposite of most of what he says. First, only a small number of them are his enemies -- he is much better off with diplomacy now and for the foreseeable future. Second, doing so involves walking into a scenario with an unknown number of opponents with unknown capabilities. Just of the casters we've seen so far, the Predictamancers can probably see him coming and the Hippimancers can stop him and his army from fighting long enough to call for reinforcements. But even leaving those aside, there are many varieties of caster we have not seen yet and they're undoubtedly powerful in their own way. Furthermore, all of these casters are capable of forming links which have been shown to be nearly game breaking. It's not Parson's way to attack neutral parties he knows so little about.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ruleno2 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:19 am

Althernai wrote:I suppose it is possible, but I very much doubt it. Leaving the mechanics aside, it goes completely against Parson's methods. He describes them in this page. Invading the Magic Kingdom is the exact opposite of most of what he says. First, only a small number of them are his enemies -- he is much better off with diplomacy now and for the foreseeable future. Second, doing so involves walking into a scenario with an unknown number of opponents with unknown capabilities. Just of the casters we've seen so far, the Predictamancers can probably see him coming and the Hippimancers can stop him and his army from fighting long enough to call for reinforcements. But even leaving those aside, there are many varieties of caster we have not seen yet and they're undoubtedly powerful in their own way. Furthermore, all of these casters are capable of forming links which have been shown to be nearly game breaking. It's not Parson's way to attack neutral parties he knows so little about.

While I agree an outright attack on the MK by Parson seems too brutal and not strategically necessary enough to fit his MO, that's not what we're talking here. The most obvious reason to invade the MK is to use it as a jumping point to attack Charlie from. The second would be to pose enough of a threat to the MK to force their cooperation in some other way (e.g. "give us Jeftichew"). Both of these are viable options using the exploits we've gone through already - and I'd say totally fit Parson's MO. He'd be more than willing to threaten the MK with force if it was necessary in order to attack his main target (Charlie). Portal park is a clearly vulnerable attack point, and he has a newly-available exploit (moving his dead army through) which few people if any expect from him - an opportunity that he might not get again (both from portal park closing/heavily guarding his portal in the future and from his army being decrypted and no longer mobile). The MK is not Parson's enemy - a point he will undoubtedly be happy to make to them - but if they stand in his way they welcome the same treatment. Parson has proven he can make tough moves like this before and I highly doubt he'd be willing to avoid using such an exploit as this if it was just a matter of not wanting to stir up trouble in the MK. (On the other hand, if he deemed an attack on Charlie through the portal a stupid tactical move - since it's pretty damn dangerous - fair enough!)

Addressing your additional points: The Predictamancers are having difficulty reading things today. "Everyone's Fate turns this turn", "Turns like this, they come up time to time and everything afta is cloudy. Something has to get decided today, Sizemore. Fate will go fowad from there." - Marie quotes from Lipkin's link. The Predictamancers haven't forseen what's happened yet - or at least the high-level ones haven't. But regardless - Marie and co seem to compose most of them, and they're on Parson's side.
The Hippiemancers may be able to stop an attack in the MK, should they defy the wishes of their Grand Abbie, but that could be turned into an advantage. Parson would be free to talk and explain himself before anyone got shoot-ey and might be able to convince casters to join him in an alliance against Charlie. He knows the Thinkamancers and Predictamancers are against Charlie - it might be safe to assume there's more support out there. Parson would still have his bargaining chip in the form of a standing army of decrypted just waiting for the hippiemancy to wear off, and he'd have a perfectly viable escape route - just have the decrypted screen him and back up through the portal should he need to retreat.
Of course it could be a lot messier than that. But Parson has already shown he's willing to risk the unknowns of the MK this turn - last time for a very pointless move that almost got him killed in addition to breaking MK neutrality. I don't see why he wouldn't be willing to make the same risk again, this time with better odds and the known support of two factions in the MK. Sure it's a huge gamble and there are a ton of unknowns, but the risks you listed just don't deter it enough - and as far as I can see it fully fits in with Parson's "methods".


(Oh, and again - linking, if it requires a thinkamancer, isn't a problem as long as the Great Minds are on Parson's side)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby effataigus » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:42 am

LordAcme wrote:Well yes. The point was she had only weeks of experience and that wasn't enough to grant her the wisdom to outmaneuver people who were more knowledgeable, but proven unreliable (not to mention unlikable).
Agreed. Being overly confident in our own instincts is definitely something that I can identify with. I think she is to blame in book 0, but it is an understandable failure even if it led to the unavoidable end of Goodminton.

The blame only keeps piling up from there though. She was sure she could turn Jillian even after Jillian broke the box, escaped, and toppled the first domino that seems to have ultimately ended Haffaton. She was sure she could take Stanley's invasion, and triggered the sack of Faq. She was sure Jillian wouldn't break her spell, and her certainty led to Stanley giving up on Gobwin Knob in book 1. She was sure she could talk Jillian into something or other other that would be better than what she'd have gotten from just decapitating Faq, and that led to Kingworld.

Wanda's bad decisions are kinda the main driver of the plot.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Salem » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:08 pm

effataigus wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Well yes. The point was she had only weeks of experience and that wasn't enough to grant her the wisdom to outmaneuver people who were more knowledgeable, but proven unreliable (not to mention unlikable).
Agreed. Being overly confident in our own instincts is definitely something that I can identify with. I think she is to blame in book 0, but it is an understandable failure even if it led to the unavoidable end of Goodminton.

The blame only keeps piling up from there though. She was sure she could turn Jillian even after Jillian broke the box, escaped, and toppled the first domino that seems to have ultimately ended Haffaton. She was sure she could take Stanley's invasion, and triggered the sack of Faq. She was sure Jillian wouldn't break her spell, and her certainty led to Stanley giving up on Gobwin Knob in book 1. She was sure she could talk Jillian into something or other other that would be better than what she'd have gotten from just decapitating Faq, and that led to Kingworld.

Wanda's bad decisions are kinda the main driver of the plot.

Wands is innocent, Charlie causes her bad decisions. Look deeper, man. Yah gotta look deeper.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Somna » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:07 pm

effataigus wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Well yes. The point was she had only weeks of experience and that wasn't enough to grant her the wisdom to outmaneuver people who were more knowledgeable, but proven unreliable (not to mention unlikable).
Agreed. Being overly confident in our own instincts is definitely something that I can identify with. I think she is to blame in book 0, but it is an understandable failure even if it led to the unavoidable end of Goodminton.

The blame only keeps piling up from there though. She was sure she could turn Jillian even after Jillian broke the box, escaped, and toppled the first domino that seems to have ultimately ended Haffaton. She was sure she could take Stanley's invasion, and triggered the sack of Faq. She was sure Jillian wouldn't break her spell, and her certainty led to Stanley giving up on Gobwin Knob in book 1. She was sure she could talk Jillian into something or other other that would be better than what she'd have gotten from just decapitating Faq, and that led to Kingworld.

Wanda's bad decisions are kinda the main driver of the plot.


Totally agree with this. She's not catching on that she should not be making any decisions whatsoever, as no matter who she learns tactics from, whatever option she ends up picking is practically the worst successful option available for her.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Whispri » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:16 pm

ManaCaster wrote:Would Isaac Newton saying three story houses are impossible make building one genius? Besides, Charlie didn't say creating a new side was impossible. Just that it would be very hard to do so as a way to escape the inferno, since there were units of a different side around, including red dwagons that are out of Parson's reach and will survive the inferno.

Even assuming that losing the current capital results in an automatic switch to some random different capital on the same side, there is nothing genius about exploiting that. And since Stanley thought he would have to journey all the way out there to switch the capital back, and Parson admitted that it was a huge favor, that kinda points against things actually working like that. There has to be some sort of huge inconvenience to losing your current capital on a multi-capital side.

Look, if you're just trying to find a way to justify Parson starting his own side, there are better ways to do it. There are all sorts of exploits you could create by having two tightly allied sides, like popping unlimited casters by having any popped by the child side turn to the parent side and sharing usage for instance, so it has to happen eventually. But if it was going to happen this turn, the thematically appropriate moment would have been during the inferno, a time that passed and went.

If Sir Isaac Newton had made such a statement in a World in which no three story building were known? Of course it would. And unless you conisder Charlie to be a drooling idiot, well... Oh and those Gobwin Knob Units? They happen to still be alive and in the City.

The genius comes in actually making it happen.There being a well known and obvious advantage to stealing the secret of fire from the Gods, doesn't make it an easy accomplishment. And of course, there's exploitation and there's exploitation.

Not Parson, Wanda. Wanda's the by far best choice for Side founder. And it's not like she's been doing anything lately.

effataigus wrote:Agreed. Being overly confident in our own instincts is definitely something that I can identify with. I think she is to blame in book 0, but it is an understandable failure even if it led to the unavoidable end of Goodminton.

The blame only keeps piling up from there though. She was sure she could turn Jillian even after Jillian broke the box, escaped, and toppled the first domino that seems to have ultimately ended Haffaton. She was sure she could take Stanley's invasion, and triggered the sack of Faq. She was sure Jillian wouldn't break her spell, and her certainty led to Stanley giving up on Gobwin Knob in book 1. She was sure she could talk Jillian into something or other other that would be better than what she'd have gotten from just decapitating Faq, and that led to Kingworld.

Wanda's bad decisions are kinda the main driver of the plot.

Again, Goodminton benefited from ignoring Delphie's advice. They might have been better off accepting the deal offered at Kiloton, but there, Wanda offered to Turn, it was Tommy's decision (that Delphie sabotaged) to reject it.

Wanda had been given direct orders to turn Gillian... or to croak her. Of course she chose the former! And the attempt didn't fail, it was interrupted by an enemy army (try blaming her for that). The fall of Faq: She would indeed have destroyed Stanley and his Dwagons, had he not miraculously caught and tamed enough Dwagons to more than double the size of his army in the space of two Turns. That wasn't bad planning on Wanda's part, it was appalling luck. Sometimes the enemy just keeps on rolling twenties. The spell: Parson gambled everything on that spell holding, not Wanda. Also, the spell would have held if Charlie's Archons hadn't decided to work pro bono, the last thing anyone who's heard of Charlie would expect. Kingsworld: Not only is there no way Wanda could have anticipated such an action (Parson and his magic bracelet certainly didn't), there's no way she could have avoided it save aborting the attack on the City. She flies in shooting, the spell gets cast, end of Turn and story. You may as well blame her for your car not starting.

Do you not think that the plot is driven by the Arkentools? The Royals' hatred of the wrong sort of dynastic Ruler? The insane whims of certain RCC leaders? Magick Kingom conspiracies? The plots of Charlie?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby drachefly » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:18 pm

Salem wrote:Wands is innocent, Charlie causes her bad decisions. Look deeper, man. Yah gotta look deeper.


Charlie was definitely involved in 3 of those, but in the Jillian's Dwagon Hunt case it went against his own rules, and of course his presence was known and his effects could have been anticipated.

That said, it's not like that error actually had any negative effects. Parson would have done the same had he known Jillian's compulsion was breakable. The dwagons would have been in the same hex, and so on.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:54 pm

Whispri wrote:If Sir Isaac Newton had made such a statement in a World in which no three story building were known? Of course it would. And unless you conisder Charlie to be a drooling idiot, well... Oh and those Gobwin Knob Units? They happen to still be alive and in the City.

My point is, the fact that a genius says something doesn't make it true, and it doesn't necessarily make knowing better genius. Especially if they didn't quite say what other people claimed they said.

Whispri wrote:The genius comes in actually making it happen.There being a well known and obvious advantage to stealing the secret of fire from the Gods, doesn't make it an easy accomplishment. And of course, there's exploitation and there's exploitation.

Oh, now that the inferno's over, it would be really easy to create a new side. All Parson would have to do is croak/disband them all, or even better, just plain wait until next turn when he can order them out. Doing something genius to make it happen this turn without destroying those units is redundant and not worth the drama.

Whispri wrote:Not Parson, Wanda. Wanda's the by far best choice for Side founder. And it's not like she's been doing anything lately.

Why Spacerock? Couldn't she reach Unaroyal in a short time? And why would Parson want to give her more power? After her creepy enthusiasm for decrypting one of Parson's friends? Considering everything she's done lately, she could really use a helping of humble pie. In spite of Jillian's actions, it would seem that she still hasn't had nearly enough servings.
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