Book 2 – Page 111

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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby effataigus » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:31 pm

Whispri wrote:...
I'll summarize your argument as "I am being unfairly harsh on Wanda." This is fair, and I don't mean to say that she is always doing the worst thing possible... far from it. Just that she has had her mostly good thoughts and intentions, time and again, turned into horrible outcomes through outrageous fate, and yet she still has excessive confidence in her own thinking. I find her thinking to be sound, but overly linear. She fails to explore any outcome except the most probable. Compare this to Ansom, who makes plans for when his backup plans fail, or Hamster who uses his outsider's viewpoint to constantly brainstorm all of the bizarre things that this world can use to surprise him, and he it... or even Delphie, who can see the *actual* outcome, factoring in outrageous fortune and other side's shenannigans, of certain decisions. Does Wanda give her intelligent council to these people who have ostensibly been placed in charge of her, and accurately express the likelihood of her ideas being incorrect? Time and again, no. She goes around these people, or she advises only around how she is certain things will come out.

As for blame in specific instances...
drachefly wrote:That said, it's not like that error actually had any negative effects. Parson would have done the same had he known Jillian's compulsion was breakable. The dwagons would have been in the same hex, and so on.
I have my doubts that Parson would have given Jillian back to the RCC at all if he had known that the compulsion could be broken. Whether Jillian's presence in the battle over the lake made much of a difference is debatable. I believe it did, especially when you consider that Ansom hired the Archons to escort her. I think there is a much better case to be made that Jillian's presence made a difference in the battle of Faq pass however... especially when you consider that that battle only happened at all because Jillian knew where Stanley was going. Thank goodness Jack saved the day there. This argument tapers off as you go too far into the future though, since it is a chaotic system, and things could have ended much worse. For instance, if Wanda hadn't miss-advised Hamster and caused him to lose the lake battle, and hence caused Stanley to bug out, well, then mebbe Stanley would have been in GK, and zombcano couldn't have happened. Either way, she fed Hamster bad intel with excessive confidence.

Whispri wrote: And the attempt didn't fail, it was interrupted by an enemy army (try blaming her for that).
Hahah, sure! That enemy army knew where they were because Wanda let Jillian escape. Wanda had too much confidence in the box and in her sway over Jillian (why she let her out of the box in the first place, where the got the ceramic).
Whispri wrote:The spell: Parson gambled everything on that spell holding, not Wanda. Also, the spell would have held if Charlie's Archons hadn't decided to work pro bono, the last thing anyone who's heard of Charlie would expect.
Again, I blame her for her portrayal of the uncertainties in the spell holding that led to Parson given Jillian back to RCC. She even tried to shout down Sizemore when he (belatedly) tried to warn Parson.
Whispri wrote:Kingsworld: Not only is there no way Wanda could have anticipated such an action (Parson and his magic bracelet certainly didn't), there's no way she could have avoided it save aborting the attack on the City. She flies in shooting, the spell gets cast, end of Turn and story. You may as well blame her for your car not starting.
You'll recall that Ossomer advised her to fly in under veil and croak Jillian, effectively ending Faq before they could get the spell off (and possibly ending Charlescomm to boot if it was truly Charlie linked to Vanna!) But no... Wanda knows Jillian. Ain't no problem.
Whispri wrote:Do you not think that the plot is driven by the Arkentools? The Royals' hatred of the wrong sort of dynastic Ruler? The insane whims of certain RCC leaders? Magick Kingom conspiracies? The plots of Charlie?
Sure, true. My rhetoric got away from me. Wanda's bad decisions are one of the main drivers of the plot.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Dunbar » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:34 pm

I think an all out invasion and/or war with the MK is out (at least at this point in time), but I do think his plan will involve the MK. It's a very good reason to hold off on decryption, at least for the moment. Maybe take a body into the MK, decrypt it, then see if it can pass safely through the portal back into their city. Non-casters cannot pass through a portal into the MK, but maybe they can safely pass out of the MK.

That would be interesting. He can then transport and decrypt his army in the MK, and have the ability to strike any capital city. The downside is this isn't something he'll want other sides (especially Charlie) to know he can do. So maybe that's the reason for Sizemore's juice. He doesn't have Jack to hide his actions. So he'll go in with Sizemore who will make a wall or earthen hut around the GK portal for privacy. Wanda comes in with a corpse, decrypts it, then returns to Jetstone. If the newly decrypted makes it back ok, Parson then has a gambit he can use in the future.

Or...or maybe he does conquer the MK. Use Sizemore to make a screen, get the bodies in there and decrypt them. Surprise attack the MK casters, and decrypt them as they fall, so you can fight magic with magic. The big gamble is not knowing if decrypted casters can cast. You can decrypt Jack first, but he was out of juice already, so that may be inconclusive. Unless decrypting refills juice.

I find a lot of these discussions focus on strategy and not on narrative though. First and foremost, Erfworld is a story. It's too early to have another huge battle, we're in the epilogue of Book 2. The plan isn't going to be to prepare a surprise attack for any remaining troops in the Jetstone area, as that plan would be boring, even if it's neat and strategically sound. Parson's next move has to be out of the box, it has to involve the bodies and Sizemore (given what was said in the last couple panels), but it also can't be a big fight or battle. And we have to see Jack decrypted, that's a given. Those are the demands of the story as I see them. Testing out MK decryption seems to fit those needs. The problem I see is Parson then ordering a newly decrypted soldier in the MK to go through the portal to Jetstone...that's pretty cold.

But conquering the MK is out, at least for now. Parson has to meet with the GMttA, Janice has more to do and say, there are lots of plot threads that would be cut short if he just goes in there and decrypts them all.

I wish we knew more about the MK. Where on Erf is it? Is it on Erf? It seems to be all one big hex...can you move out of it (without using a portal)? What is in the hexes surrounding it? And why is it only casters can use the portal? That last one is one I think about a lot. How are we certain only casters can use it? Maybe non-casters who dare enter portal park are summarily executed. That seems unlikely given what happened to Bea, but it does intrigue me. When Parson first entered the portal, the casters there were all prepared to kill him, until Janice insisted he was a Hippiemancer. But why try to kill him? If he makes it through the portal, he's a caster, with as much right to be in the MK as any other caster. Unless...non casters are simply killed when they come through, while casters spread the belief that it is the portal that kills them.

Unlikely, maybe, but wouldn't be the first time Parson (and thus we, the readers) were fed misinformation or half-truths.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Lipkin » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:08 pm

Could holding off on decryption be a exploit to get around move? Say you bring a ton of bodies with you, and you travel to the end of your move. Could you then decrypt the bodies, who would then have full move, and have them continue on their way? Don't quite know how it would include Sizemore, but it's not a bad idea. It would make Stanley's trip less dangerous, as they could scout much of the journey before he makes his way to the new capitol.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby teratorn » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:13 pm

Antium was decrypted at full health and hitpoints, Ossomer got full move, they get full stats on decryption. If a decrypted caster can cast then he should be full on juice.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby effataigus » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:25 pm

Lipkin wrote:Could holding off on decryption be a exploit to get around move? Say you bring a ton of bodies with you, and you travel to the end of your move. Could you then decrypt the bodies, who would then have full move, and have them continue on their way? Don't quite know how it would include Sizemore, but it's not a bad idea. It would make Stanley's trip less dangerous, as they could scout much of the journey before he makes his way to the new capitol.
Cool idea.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby dirocyn » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:37 pm

Like all the rest of you, I'm intrigued by what Parson has in mind. What does Sizemore's juice have to do with the decision to mass decrypt?

A couple of things that haven't been pointed out yet (or if they were, I missed it): First, Jetstone is known for popping some of the highest quality infantry on Erf. Might the decrypted be higher quality if the place is repaired before decryption? That seems plausible, though perhaps not genius level. But could Sizemore build features into the city that improve the quality of uncroaked or decrypted troops? If Sizemore can't, then a two-caster link between Sizemore and Ace Hardware could very likely add accessories for buildings. Which might very well include something that would improve decryption. It could also include modern flush toilets, cannons on the walls, and dungeons more effective for turning prisoners. Or a factory for mass-producing "accessories" such as machine guns.

But I fear, as others have noted, that the plan for Sizemore's juice involves transporting the corpses to the MK to decrypt there, or through yet another portal. It looks like a foolish move to me, though it might be very effective. Also, it would explain why Marie said everyone's fate changes this turn.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:41 pm

Dunbar wrote:When Parson first entered the portal, the casters there were all prepared to kill him, until Janice insisted he was a Hippiemancer. But why try to kill him? If he makes it through the portal, he's a caster, with as much right to be in the MK as any other caster.

Parson's stats are invisible, so they can't actually tell that he's a caster. But they can guess that he's a warlord thanks to his appearance. And even if he proved that he was a dual class Warlord/Caster, they still wouldn't be happy. That brings the war closer to the Magic Kingdom, dual class Casters are unheard of so they aren't used to the idea, and there's a social distinction, much like how Wanda can't talk to anyone because of her discipline and level.

Dunbar wrote:Unless...non casters are simply killed when they come through, while casters spread the belief that it is the portal that kills them. Unlikely, maybe, but wouldn't be the first time Parson (and thus we, the readers) were fed misinformation or half-truths.

It would be impossible to maintain such a deception for so long. There are way too many people in the Magic Kingdom with far too many diverse motives to keep such a secret. Someone would spill the beans. The Titans have almost certainly made the knowledge that portals disband non-casters instinctive. If they had to learn that, can you imagine how many inexperienced units would get themselves destroyed?

dirocyn wrote:If Sizemore can't, then a two-caster link between Sizemore and Ace Hardware could very likely add accessories for buildings. Which might very well include something that would improve decryption. It could also include modern flush toilets, cannons on the walls, and dungeons more effective for turning prisoners.

Or elevators so Parson doesn't have to climb the stairs. Also, the proper term isn't "accessories for buildings". The proper term is a dollhouse! :lol:
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Somna » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:37 pm

dirocyn wrote:Like all the rest of you, I'm intrigued by what Parson has in mind. What does Sizemore's juice have to do with the decision to mass decrypt?

A couple of things that haven't been pointed out yet (or if they were, I missed it): First, Jetstone is known for popping some of the highest quality infantry on Erf. Might the decrypted be higher quality if the place is repaired before decryption? That seems plausible, though perhaps not genius level. But could Sizemore build features into the city that improve the quality of uncroaked or decrypted troops? If Sizemore can't, then a two-caster link between Sizemore and Ace Hardware could very likely add accessories for buildings. Which might very well include something that would improve decryption. It could also include modern flush toilets, cannons on the walls, and dungeons more effective for turning prisoners. Or a factory for mass-producing "accessories" such as machine guns.

But I fear, as others have noted, that the plan for Sizemore's juice involves transporting the corpses to the MK to decrypt there, or through yet another portal. It looks like a foolish move to me, though it might be very effective. Also, it would explain why Marie said everyone's fate changes this turn.


Two caster links that don't involve a Thinkamancer don't exist. All links have a Thinkamancer (or the Arkendish) involved.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby arkerpay » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:49 pm

There has been a lot of talk about the uncroaked in the MK. Another unanswered question around combat in or conquering MK concerns golems. Can golems pass through a portal unscathed? Can a golem be created in the MK? A dirtamancer in the MK could have his own posse of golem thugs. A golem task force could sneak attack across the MK into an opponent's capitol.

I'm just waiting for another Book 0 update anyway. At least we aren't talking about free will!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby bpzinn » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:57 pm

About decrypting in the magic kingdom as a portal workaround...
This relies on moving objects through the portal (which is possible as gems/magic items/raiment and many other things can be transported via the MK) and turning those items from objects into units (there has been no evidence presented to us that anything in the magic kingdom prevents this)

If this is possible, the same criteria apply to other caster created units such as golems, dolls, and probably caster summoning that do not use the portals.
There is no evidence of crap monsters, giant care bears, vanilla zombies, etc. in the Magic Kingdom. I see three possible reasons why...
1. Some property of the magic kingdom prevents non casters from being created there.
2. It is possible but not done because the costs out weigh the utility. If the MK is looked at a no fighting area, and the units still cost upkeep, then doing this is just wasting money. Especially true if the portals depop non-casters even when leaving the MK.
3. It is possible but prevented by convention and/or threat of force. The most obvious use of an army of non-casters in the MK would be a play to take over the MK. This is probably one of the duties of the portal guardians, to stop the stockpiling of corpses, and mountains of crap, BEFORE someone has created an army in the MK, either a capital side wanting to take over, or a resident who wants to be the king of the kingdom.

Now of Parson does try this, he has some advantages over others. Decryption costs no upkeep, and Wanda and the pliers seem to be able to raise an army very quickly, if Sizemores speed at creating golems is typical for most casters. But honestly, if this is possible, I think it is something the MK would be prepared for.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Dunbar » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:52 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
Dunbar wrote:Unless...non casters are simply killed when they come through, while casters spread the belief that it is the portal that kills them. Unlikely, maybe, but wouldn't be the first time Parson (and thus we, the readers) were fed misinformation or half-truths.

It would be impossible to maintain such a deception for so long. There are way too many people in the Magic Kingdom with far too many diverse motives to keep such a secret. Someone would spill the beans. The Titans have almost certainly made the knowledge that portals disband non-casters instinctive. If they had to learn that, can you imagine how many inexperienced units would get themselves destroyed?


Unlikely maybe, but not impossible. Casters definitely see themselves as a special kind of unit, and the magic kingdom as a very special place. A place where there is no war, a safe haven. And because of that, a place unlike any other on Erf. Is it possible casters have a hidden duty to protect the MK? And as far as inexperienced units disbanding on portal entry, only sides have portals to the MK. Sides that pop units have other units that show newbies the ropes. Wanda knew many things on being popped, but also learned many more. Being wary of portals could be something they have to learn.

Overall I agree it would be a stretch, but Erfworlders are adept at secrets, look at the GMttA and their G-string or Predictamancers and everything they do. Maybe casters even have some hidden Duty that compels them to protect the MK from non-casters. And if, from very early in Erf's history the portals are only for casters rule was enforced, then quickly there would be very very few non-casters who even attempt to enter. Then the ruse is easy to continue...if it weren't for what happened to Bea, I'd even say non-casters could get through just fine but they don't even try it since they've been told they will disband. And few Erfworlders think outside the box.

bpzinn wrote:About decrypting in the magic kingdom as a portal workaround...
This relies on moving objects through the portal (which is possible as gems/magic items/raiment and many other things can be transported via the MK) and turning those items from objects into units (there has been no evidence presented to us that anything in the magic kingdom prevents this)

If this is possible, the same criteria apply to other caster created units such as golems, dolls, and probably caster summoning that do not use the portals.
There is no evidence of crap monsters, giant care bears, vanilla zombies, etc. in the Magic Kingdom. I see three possible reasons why...
1. Some property of the magic kingdom prevents non casters from being created there.
2. It is possible but not done because the costs out weigh the utility. If the MK is looked at a no fighting area, and the units still cost upkeep, then doing this is just wasting money. Especially true if the portals depop non-casters even when leaving the MK.
3. It is possible but prevented by convention and/or threat of force. The most obvious use of an army of non-casters in the MK would be a play to take over the MK. This is probably one of the duties of the portal guardians, to stop the stockpiling of corpses, and mountains of crap, BEFORE someone has created an army in the MK, either a capital side wanting to take over, or a resident who wants to be the king of the kingdom.

Now of Parson does try this, he has some advantages over others. Decryption costs no upkeep, and Wanda and the pliers seem to be able to raise an army very quickly, if Sizemores speed at creating golems is typical for most casters. But honestly, if this is possible, I think it is something the MK would be prepared for.


There is, of course, a 4th option. Casters see the MK as a sacred place. A place for casters only, that is free from war (at least until Parson has recently tried to muddy the waters). Other casters have no incentive to try to conquer it, as for many it is their real home. Interesting when you think many casters may see casters from opposing sides in the MK, and feel compelled by Duty to their side to take action, but apparently don't. It may well be that Casters have some Duty to the MK as well as to their Side.

As for the MK being prepared for it...I think not. It is a place used to peace, a place without war, and that (as far as we know), has never seen war. That doesn't mean the other casters won't fight, I'm sure they will, and Janice hasn't hesitated to flex her magical muscle there. But I don't think the MK is in any way prepared for it.

I do foresee true war coming to the MK at some point though. Maybe a battle between Charlie's and Parson's forces there (can Charlie's Angels enter the MK? Do they count as true casters?). Maybe it's Charlie who tries to take over the MK for some plot reason down the line as thing start to get real, and Parson takes corpses into the MK to decrypt an army to fight him.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ruleno2 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:03 pm

bpzinn wrote:About decrypting in the magic kingdom as a portal workaround...
This relies on moving objects through the portal (which is possible as gems/magic items/raiment and many other things can be transported via the MK) and turning those items from objects into units (there has been no evidence presented to us that anything in the magic kingdom prevents this)

If this is possible, the same criteria apply to other caster created units such as golems, dolls, and probably caster summoning that do not use the portals.
There is no evidence of crap monsters, giant care bears, vanilla zombies, etc. in the Magic Kingdom. I see three possible reasons why...
1. Some property of the magic kingdom prevents non casters from being created there.
2. It is possible but not done because the costs out weigh the utility. If the MK is looked at a no fighting area, and the units still cost upkeep, then doing this is just wasting money. Especially true if the portals depop non-casters even when leaving the MK.
3. It is possible but prevented by convention and/or threat of force. The most obvious use of an army of non-casters in the MK would be a play to take over the MK. This is probably one of the duties of the portal guardians, to stop the stockpiling of corpses, and mountains of crap, BEFORE someone has created an army in the MK, either a capital side wanting to take over, or a resident who wants to be the king of the kingdom.

Now of Parson does try this, he has some advantages over others. Decryption costs no upkeep, and Wanda and the pliers seem to be able to raise an army very quickly, if Sizemores speed at creating golems is typical for most casters. But honestly, if this is possible, I think it is something the MK would be prepared for.

Very good points. But before decryption, creating golems or decrypted had a speed/quality tradeoff that might have made any portal invasion highly impractical since a caster force could assemble quickly enough to overwhelm whoever was trying to animate their army. Decryption allows instant revival of powerful units, making an overwhelming invasion force through the portals possible. Before, I would think they'd be more concerned with someone secretly amassing golems/dolls/decrypted elsewhere in the MK and proceeding from there. It's a minor change, but combined with the convention that nobody has ever attacked the MK perhaps it's enough that they're unprepared for such a move.


Dunbar wrote:I find a lot of these discussions focus on strategy and not on narrative though. First and foremost, Erfworld is a story. It's too early to have another huge battle, we're in the epilogue of Book 2. The plan isn't going to be to prepare a surprise attack for any remaining troops in the Jetstone area, as that plan would be boring, even if it's neat and strategically sound. Parson's next move has to be out of the box, it has to involve the bodies and Sizemore (given what was said in the last couple panels), but it also can't be a big fight or battle. And we have to see Jack decrypted, that's a given. Those are the demands of the story as I see them. Testing out MK decryption seems to fit those needs. The problem I see is Parson then ordering a newly decrypted soldier in the MK to go through the portal to Jetstone...that's pretty cold.

I think Parson walking through Charlie's portal might be an excellent scene to end book 2 on. The MK doesn't have to be a long battle - it could simply be a standoff. Conversely, simply testing whether bodies pass through portals isn't a very good ending (nor are the majority of the other practical ideas brought-up here). This MK attack is perhaps impractical or a poor tactical decision, but it's anything but bad narrative.

ManaCaster wrote:
dirocyn wrote:If Sizemore can't, then a two-caster link between Sizemore and Ace Hardware could very likely add accessories for buildings. Which might very well include something that would improve decryption. It could also include modern flush toilets, cannons on the walls, and dungeons more effective for turning prisoners.

Or elevators so Parson doesn't have to climb the stairs. Also, the proper term isn't "accessories for buildings". The proper term is a dollhouse! :lol:

I now really want this to happen :lol: Ace and his dream house, complete with matching accessories!
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby LordAcme » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:33 pm

effataigus wrote:
LordAcme wrote:Well yes. The point was she had only weeks of experience and that wasn't enough to grant her the wisdom to outmaneuver people who were more knowledgeable, but proven unreliable (not to mention unlikable).
Agreed. Being overly confident in our own instincts is definitely something that I can identify with. I think she is to blame in book 0, but it is an understandable failure even if it led to the unavoidable end of Goodminton.

The blame only keeps piling up from there though. She was sure she could turn Jillian even after Jillian broke the box, escaped, and toppled the first domino that seems to have ultimately ended Haffaton. She was sure she could take Stanley's invasion, and triggered the sack of Faq. She was sure Jillian wouldn't break her spell, and her certainty led to Stanley giving up on Gobwin Knob in book 1. She was sure she could talk Jillian into something or other other that would be better than what she'd have gotten from just decapitating Faq, and that led to Kingworld.

Wanda's bad decisions are kinda the main driver of the plot.


I would have to say there's a lot else going on with all of these examples. When Wanda was trying to turn Jillian, two huge factors were in play. The first is a continued lack of - I guess "worldly wisdom" is a good term. She had been captured by Olive and put through the Olive Garden mindshredder right after the fall of Goodminton, so how much more developed could she have been from that time? I would say "Not much", and also "lucky to be more than a drooling idiot".

And yet, again she does something remarkable. She convinces Olive to let her try to turn Jillian in part because she wants to spare her the Olive Garden. (I could speculate that Wanda was trying to create some personal loyalty for the time when she'd turn against Olive, but I've got no proof, just a hunch.) Add in that she'd been trained by a Turnamancer and had a magic Turning box, and I can't begrudge her her confidence. I'd have been pretty confident too.

Fast forward to FAQ, and Fate is to blame there. Fate gave Stanley more than twice the force he started with. Had he gone with the initial 15 dwagons, he'd have been toast and the Arkenhammer would have been Wanda's as planned. Yet another pass for her.

On Jillian's breaking the suggestion spell, again, outside interference. Had the Archons not been with Jillian, would she have broken the spell? I think totally not. Even after being TOLD that she's being manipulated, Jillian obeyed the spell enough to try to talk everyone out of not attacking the wounded dwagon hex. The Archons had to offer her a way to pit her love for Ansom directly against the spell for her to overcome it. Again, Wanda was completely right up to the point where something that couldn't have been foreseen happened.

On the last one - I'm not sure of what event that was? Could you give a little more info?

But even if there's no defense for Wanda on the last one, I think what Parson said about being the perfect warlord completely applies to Wanda's decisions all through Book 0 and 1. "Perfect strategy does not mean one perfect flawless plan. It doesn't mean you never lose."

Edit: whoops, way ninja'd by Whispri again. Sorry for the duplicate arguments. I musta skipped a whole page somehow.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ManaCaster » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:46 pm

LordAcme wrote:On the last one - I'm not sure of what event that was? Could you give a little more info?

Wanda assumes Jillian has arrived for her, whether to ally or fulfill a vendetta. Parson suggests that she might be there for Ansom. Wanda reacts jealously and sends Ansom off with the ground army, trying to impose her own will on Fate and prove that Jillian loves her more than Ansom. Which in turn leads her to try bargaining with Jillian rather than just attacking her. And it leads her to trust Jillian when she really shouldn't.

If Wanda had let Ansom come with her, bad stuff might have still happened, but the losses would be lighter because Fate wouldn't feel the need to punish her for resisting it. Jillian would have gotten to talk with Ansom, which might have influenced her decisions. Ossomer would have been with the ground army instead of the air army. Etc.

Course, we can't know for sure what would have happened, but Wanda has cognitive dissonance, admitting that maybe she made some sort of a mistake with Fate, and Jack makes pointed jabs at what exactly she did wrong.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby LordAcme » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:15 pm

ManaCaster wrote:
LordAcme wrote:On the last one - I'm not sure of what event that was? Could you give a little more info?

Wanda assumes Jillian has arrived for her, whether to ally or fulfill a vendetta. Parson suggests that she might be there for Ansom. Wanda reacts jealously and sends Ansom off with the ground army, trying to impose her own will on Fate and prove that Jillian loves her more than Ansom. Which in turn leads her to try bargaining with Jillian rather than just attacking her. And it leads her to trust Jillian when she really shouldn't.

If Wanda had let Ansom come with her, bad stuff might have still happened, but the losses would be lighter because Fate wouldn't feel the need to punish her for resisting it. Jillian would have gotten to talk with Ansom, which might have influenced her decisions. Ossomer would have been with the ground army instead of the air army. Etc.

Course, we can't know for sure what would have happened, but Wanda has cognitive dissonance, admitting that maybe she made some sort of a mistake with Fate, and Jack makes pointed jabs at what exactly she did wrong.


Oh Kingworld = Love is a Battlefield. Got it.

Yes, Wanda's in love and codependency is afoot. She's excessively confident and puts herself in vulnerable positions in more ways than one.

And still things would have gone all her way had it not been for a hella surprise by an outside force - Jillian and the Turnamancer. Remove those unknowns from the battle and who here thinks GK would not have owned Spacerock? Infantry vs Archons and casters mounted on dwagons, with an infantry column to back them up. To paraphrase a quote, "That is not winnable".

Even after all the arguments put forth, I still can't lay the blame for every bad outcome she's been involved in on her shoulders. To do so presupposes that she should have the qualities of a strategist instead of a Chief Caster. The fact that in Kingworld she's acting as a commander doesn't obviate the fact that she's had Chief Warlords and Parson counseling her every move. The small decisions she has made (which you outlined above) don't amount to strategic or even tactical mistakes given the information at the time.

And there's a a counterargument for each one in the form of an upside - had Jillian turned, the Turnamancer would not have ended the turn for GK and things would have gone as planned. Then it's even possible the Turnamancer would have done the same to Jetstone, and just how would THAT have worked out?

A corollary question - if that had happened, would anyone say that Slately should have anticipated that possibility and refused the alliance with FAQ? I would guess not, because there'd have been no way for him to know that Jillian had a Turnamancer or that the Turnamancer could do that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Beeskee » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:51 am

The only thing I can think of is that Parson is going to try a three-way with Maggie and Sizemore.

... Get your mind out of the gutter, I'm talking about a tri-mancer linkup. ;)

He links up with them and rebuilds the city to his specifications.


I know, it's not super impressive, but it's all I can think of. :D
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Werebiscuit » Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:33 am

For all those predicting the Zombie apocalypse rollout over the MK I have only two words "Timeout" and "Chillaxe" ;)












Ok maybe a 3rd word "Hippiemancer"....
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:19 am

could Sizemore make the city look burned to the ground to draw oportunists in a trap?
3 Naughtymancers of different disciplines walk into a bar... wait, forget what I just said. A shockmancer and a croakamancer walk into a bar.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby effataigus » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:47 am

Werebiscuit wrote:For all those predicting the Zombie apocalypse rollout over the MK I have only two words "Timeout" and "Chillaxe" ;)


Timeout only works for "one minute or so" (see current page). Need I remind you the fate that befell the Chillaxe?

Not that I think this is going to happen, but I think you might be overestimating hippiemancers here.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 111

Postby Werebiscuit » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:11 am

effataigus wrote:Not that I think this is going to happen, but I think you might be overestimating hippiemancers here.


Overestimating ? The Major power before GK was Haffaton...and that was based on one hippiemancer.
I think you may be underestimating the power of a Master hippiemancer backed up by a whole caste of her brethren ( or sistern). ;)


Anyway all I'm really saying is that hippiemancers are the perfect antidote for the decryption steamroller ( and I'm not the first to point it out) as they remove the steam and let the roller run flat :lol:
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