A Question(s) of Rules

Speculation, discoveries, complaints, accusations, praise, and all other Erfworld discussion.

A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:02 pm

Hey all,

So, I've decided I want to take a bit of a crack at making a game based on Erfworld. It'll likely start as simple rules ala erfworld 3.0 but with the eventual hope of maybe being able to get some form of actual computer game out of it.

Very grand idea, I know, and I'm not sure I have all the knowhow to do it, or the time, but it is something I'd like to work on none-the-less.

So, what is the point of this post then? Quite simply, if I'm going to make a self contained game, then I need to be sure I have consistent rules which hopefully match actual Erfworld reasonably well. And to do that, I want to be sure that I have various rules correct, or at least have a good analog for them.

The biggest one that has always bugged me is the 'stacks of 8' rule. Nothing is mentioned about it except that 'units gain a bonus when stacked which maxes out at 8 units, so stacks of 8 are very common'. So, are there any ideas out there about how exactly this is implemented? I mean, if it were only that the bonus doesn't get bigger after 8, then you would still see large stacks being led by high leadership units. Wanda and Ansom for example gave a good +18ish to units in their stack, which trumps anything else by a huge factor, meaning it would make sense to stack the entire army with them in one doom stack. Unless of course the +18 bonus only applies up to 8 units, then it starts getting diluted. Perhaps if there are 16 units, then each unit only gets half the bonus (8/16)? I think there is an additional factor to it as well though, such as that stacking itself grants a bonus based on how many units there are, which is capped at 8 and likely diminished if it goes above 8, otherwise unled stacks would be maxed out to ensure none of the units had below the maximum bonus.

So, I'm sure this has been discussed some in the past, but I'm having trouble finding any posts about it, as it is likely a very very old subject. Are there any other ideas or some common consensus that people came to?

Another question I had was about scouting. Scouting seems to have had a bit of back and forth about seeing other tiles. Page 56 seems to show around the dragon's nest only hexes which a scout had actually entered, both in terms of terrain type and units. They notably lack information about the center hex, but they also lack information about hexes next to ones they would have entered safely in order to get to the rear portions of the nest.

Despite that, there certainly seems to be an indication that you can get at least a general idea of what is in an adjacent hex (especially as far as terrain type goes) by standing near the edge based on Maggie's statement in this summer update about being able to see a hex clearer when you enter it. It isn't as though you can't see the hex at all. Jillian saw mountains in the distance during her flight as a fugative, which likely indicated the mountains being in the next hex, as opposed to her own. Perhaps what you can see of an adjacent terrain depends on what type it is, with mountains being viewable from the next hex and others not. And then there is of course the rather famous meeting at Exposition Bridge and the one near Unaroyal, both of which involved parties meeting from opposite sides of a hex boundry. Exposition Bridge even involved the use of Shockamancy to prevent the enemy seeing into the hex that GK was in. This is odd since prior to this, it seemed it was impossible to see anything in a hex you didn't have a unit in. All GK would have had to do was back up a bit away from the edge and they should have been just as sure of their privacy. Or might this be a case of the use of scouts? Scouts can see into adjacent hexes, but regular units (Which bats might be... did we ever hear anything about bats having the scout special?) can't?

I might have other questions in the future, but these are the two biggest ones, as they both form rather core mechanics of the game, and both have been presented somewhat fuzzily.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby SNfinity » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:10 pm

I think the stack thing works like this:

Say stabbers have 2 combat (I don't know what they have) and it's additive. Say stack bonus is one per unit in the stack. So a stack of 16 stabbers has combat 40 (2x16+8), but 2 stacks of 8 stabbers each have combat 24 (2x8+8), for a total of 48.

I have a theory on Erfworld special units, as well. Each side gets a mount, a heavy, and a flyer. One of these can be applied to the other two rather than being its own unit. So Faq has gwiffons (mount + flyer) and megalogwiffs (heavy + flyer). GK has twolls (heavy), dwagons (flyer) and spidews (mount). Jetstone has sourmanders (heavy), unipegataurs (mount) and orlies (flyer).

I feel like that needs refining, though. Could we make a list of all the unique (tribe-specific?) units and see how they fit together?
SNfinity
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:32 pm

That works well for stacking where no leadership is concerned, but it doesn't make sense if you have... say a leadership 5 unit in the mix. Then you'd want all 16 stabbers under him regardless, which would make the stacks of 8 far less common. Even if you're comparing a leadership 5 unit to a leadership 3 you're looking at a significant advantage having everyone under the 5 as opposed to splitting them up between the 5 and 3. That's why I think there might be diminishing returns on everything (the stack bonus, leadership, etc.) when going above 8.

And as for the specials: Dwagons are mounts, and Unipegataurs are fliers. Dwagons might also be heavy, as they're roughly the size and strength of Megalogwiffs... which are certainly heavy flying mounts. Might be that they get to mix and match 5-6 of those for their special units though. It also seems to be based on the individual city as opposed to the side, as there was mention of GK razing cities that 'didn't produce good units' and then rebuilding them to what sounds like a side template, but yeah, likely the side gets a limited selection and can simply use other sides' selections if they capture their cities.

I'd have to look through the various tribes. Only ones I can think of off hand though are the marbits, the gobwins, the various elves, the hobgobwins.... and the giants.

And sorry if I'm sounding very negative, I'm very glad you posted, just sorta thinking out loud without alot of thought for how it sounds.

Edit: Oh, and another thought that cropped up: What is the importance of a capital? Based on Jetstone's initial reaction to being attacked (dwagonfall) they didn't seem overly concerned that the capital would be taken, only that the ruler (or heir) get out. Wasn't until trapping Parson came up that they seemed interested in changing it. If so, just what does a capital do besides give a portal to MK and allow the chief warlord to give his/her bonus to the entire hex?
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby SNfinity » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:26 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:That works well for stacking where no leadership is concerned, but it doesn't make sense if you have... say a leadership 5 unit in the mix. Then you'd want all 16 stabbers under him regardless, which would make the stacks of 8 far less common. Even if you're comparing a leadership 5 unit to a leadership 3 you're looking at a significant advantage having everyone under the 5 as opposed to splitting them up between the 5 and 3. That's why I think there might be diminishing returns on everything (the stack bonus, leadership, etc.) when going above 8.


That is an interesting point. Either stack bonus is absurdly high, or there's no point to stacks of 8. The only thing I can think of is that if leadership bonuses don't stack with each other, the CWL might be applying a large leadership bonus to the whole side that diminishes the difference. It would explain why Jetstone continually sends their crown princes into battle, at least.

Let's assume side-wide leadership bonus of 3, a warlord with leadership 5, fifteen stabbers, and Fibonacci stack bonuses (1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21). If split in two stacks of eight, it's 8(5) + 8(3) + 21 + 21 = 106 total. If all in one stack it's 16(5) + 21 = 101.

Flippin' close, but it works. Plus, it looks like when huge leadership bonuses are available all units are stacked to take advantage anyways, like when Wanda led the uncroaked in TBFGK. Plus, you can always keep raising the maximum stack bonus to make the math work.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:And as for the specials: Dwagons are mounts, and Unipegataurs are fliers. Dwagons might also be heavy, as they're roughly the size and strength of Megalogwiffs... which are certainly heavy flying mounts. Might be that they get to mix and match 5-6 of those for their special units though. It also seems to be based on the individual city as opposed to the side, as there was mention of GK razing cities that 'didn't produce good units' and then rebuilding them to what sounds like a side template, but yeah, likely the side gets a limited selection and can simply use other sides' selections if they capture their cities.


Hence needing refinement. The different sides barely seem to follow any rules at all, so I was going as close as I could, not creating exclusive groups. A better way to put it might be that each side has all of the following: a way for warlords to travel quickly, an air unit, and a heavy. Therefore, you have
GK: dwagons/spidews, dwagons, twolls
Faq: gwiffons, gwiffons/megalogwiffs, megalogwiffs
Transylvito: flying warlords, doombats/firebirds/thunderbirds, firebirds/thunderbirds?
Charlescomm: ??????????, archons, ??????????
Goodminton: sawhorses, ??????????, ??????????
Jetstone: unipegataurs, orlies/unipegataurs, gumps/sourmanders

And so on. Nothing seems to fit everything quite right, though. For example, why do some sides have more special units than others? Not to mention all the unanswered questions, like "could a megalogwiff carry Parson?".

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I'd have to look through the various tribes. Only ones I can think of off hand though are the marbits, the gobwins, the various elves, the hobgobwins.... and the giants.


Tribes are groups of human sides who may or may not look the same/share special units. What you're talking about are Natural Allies, or non-capitol sides.
SNfinity
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Lilwik » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:59 pm

Remember that in Erfworld combat is not like a game; they fight with real weapons and inflict real wounds. Therefore I suggest that we shouldn't look for game mechanics or mathematical explanations for the maximum stack size; we should look for a realistic explanation and then approximate that with game mechanics. Think of it as a real battle. A group of 8 Erfworlders can be effectively aware of each other's positions while in combat and work together to fight a common enemy, while a larger group starts to become too confusing to provide any significant teamwork benefit; they just become a disorganized mob. Similarly, a commander can shout orders to a group of any size, but in a group of 8 or fewer each unit can be personally aware of the commander, while the commander can also keep track of upto 7 nearby units. In a group of greater than 8, the commander would often become lost in the crowd.

Thinking that way, I suggest that unled stacks of upto 8 units should gain more than one unit's strength for each additional unit, while larger stacks should be nothing more than the sum of their units. Also, commander stack bonuses should only apply to upto 7 other units. If the stack contains more than that, then only the units closest to the commander get the bonus, while the rest of the stack gets only the hex-wide bonus.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:03 pm

That seems to work out, if only just, of course that doesn't exactly leave much advantage to having a bunch of warlords as we've generally seen on all the sides. With those kinds of numbers, seems like you'd be much better served popping out an extra stack of units than a warlord to lead them. I think getting this to work out properly will require some real thought.

Of course, for the game, I could always simply regulate a maximum stack size of 8 and leave it at that.

The sides may have various side bonuses. Trans has the flying warlords, FAQ has all flying specials, GK has OP Dwagons, JS maybe has strong infantry or just a wide range of special units.

And Tribes are the term for a group of natural allies, led by a chief, which can join a side.

@ lilwik - That was sort of along my line of thought as well. I'd think maybe a bit less of a hard cutoff at 9+ units, but perhaps a hard cutoff would be best. Only time we see a stack larger than 8 that I can think of is Artemis with her charge on Sylvia, but that was basically because she wanted as many people as possible to screen for her so she could take shots.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby wih » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:52 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:That seems to work out, if only just, of course that doesn't exactly leave much advantage to having a bunch of warlords as we've generally seen on all the sides. With those kinds of numbers, seems like you'd be much better served popping out an extra stack of units than a warlord to lead them. I think getting this to work out properly will require some real thought.


If you can only engage one stack with one other stack, it might be advantageous to have specific stacks with very high combat capability for taking out precision targets, like Chief Warlords. You would also need ones for doing specific combat maneuvers that require Commanders, rather than a mindless 'engage the nearest enemy' mentality.

Still, that Jetstone had what seems to be less than 10 Warlords at a capital fight speaks a lot to how many of them a side might normally have.
wih
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:07 am

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:33 am

10? I suppose we only know of a small handful specifically, but it always seems like there are a ton of level 1-2 types running around based on various statements. I mean FAQ doesn't seem to have more than 2-3 stacks of units and it has 4 or so warlords. I wonder if the chief warlord bonus and individual warlord bonuses stack, and to what degree. I think the side wide bonus stacks with leadership, but I'm less sure about the hex wide one. If the hex wide doesn't, could just be that they were counting on Ossmer having a higher hex bonus than most of their warlords could provide.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby wih » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:54 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:10? I suppose we only know of a small handful specifically, but it always seems like there are a ton of level 1-2 types running around based on various statements. I mean FAQ doesn't seem to have more than 2-3 stacks of units and it has 4 or so warlords. I wonder if the chief warlord bonus and individual warlord bonuses stack, and to what degree. I think the side wide bonus stacks with leadership, but I'm less sure about the hex wide one. If the hex wide doesn't, could just be that they were counting on Ossmer having a higher hex bonus than most of their warlords could provide.


Well, we do know that the hex-wide bonus isn't as big as the stack-specific bonus (linky). Would imply to me that warlord bonuses override hex-wide chief warlord bonuses, so it's mainly there for unlead troops.
wih
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:07 am

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:34 pm

True, but assuming a warlord gives a bonus equal to their level, if your chief warlord is fairly high (say 8) and his hex bonus is 4, then you'd need a fairly high level warlord to match that bonus, much less beat it. That kinda leads me to believe the bonuses are cumulative. Along with Parson's little speech about how you need to stack on bonuses, how they're multiplicative and so bonuses are far more important than sheer numbers. Making them stacking also makes it much more valuable to have your chief in a particular fight, despite the potential risk. After all, what is the benefit to having the chief in the hex of an important fight if his hex bonus is overridden by warlords.

Well, got some solid ideas for warlords and chief warlords at least.

Edit: So, reading through the updates a bit, I noticed something weird. Which is that there are several instances of a side's main army being strung out over multiple hexes. Now, while this might make some sense in real life, so that the entire army can't be taken out in one swift strike, thanks to the helplessness of units to move off turn, it really doesn't work out. After all, if the enemy takes out one hex of troops, they'll more than likely have enough move to go after the remaining hexes and take them out as well. And if one of the hexes is too strong for them... well, then they may have been unable to do any serious damage at all. So, since there doesn't seem to be any serious strategic advantage to spreading out your army in a string like that, does anyone think there might be a maximum number of units a side can have on a particular hex? It's the only reason I can think of for the stringing out, but I'd love to hear if anyone can think of any strategic benefit to doing so.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:34 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Does anyone think there might be a maximum number of units a side can have on a particular hex?
Don't forget that in addition the the rules about Move which control whether or not a unit can enter a hex, each hex is also a physical piece of land in the shape of a hexagon. When that land is full, of course no more units can enter a hex unless they are flying or croaking units to make space. Also remember that if your units fill a hex from wall to wall there is no way for your units to move to defend themselves when attacked; they would be like fish in a barrel on the enemy's turn.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby mortissimus » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:55 am

Lilwik wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Does anyone think there might be a maximum number of units a side can have on a particular hex?
Don't forget that in addition the the rules about Move which control whether or not a unit can enter a hex, each hex is also a physical piece of land in the shape of a hexagon. When that land is full, of course no more units can enter a hex unless they are flying or croaking units to make space. Also remember that if your units fill a hex from wall to wall there is no way for your units to move to defend themselves when attacked; they would be like fish in a barrel on the enemy's turn.


But can the enemy enter the hex if it is packed?

Edit:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Edit: So, reading through the updates a bit, I noticed something weird. Which is that there are several instances of a side's main army being strung out over multiple hexes.


Are there other instances then the RCC in book 1? In that case, I would say it is the RCC's confidence in GK being unable to seriuosly hurt any of their hexes that is the reason. Plus the flexibility it gives to have units start in different hexes. A stack of doom moves at the slowest units pace, so it moves slowly but steadily towards it target, but it is not very flexible.
Last edited by mortissimus on Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
mortissimus
 
Posts: 395
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:04 am

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:35 am

Yeah, that was kinda my thinking is it might be some kind of physical limit, but then what happens if an enemy tries to attack? Would it be possible to overstuff a hex so an enemy couldn't attack or does erf limit a side to about 1/2 the max capacity of a hex? Also, hexes are huge, while you could fill them I think it would require more units than any side has, based on things like the several thousand spacerock was stated to be holding.

So yeah just seemed like an odd tactic.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby SNfinity » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:20 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Yeah, that was kinda my thinking is it might be some kind of physical limit, but then what happens if an enemy tries to attack? Would it be possible to overstuff a hex so an enemy couldn't attack or does erf limit a side to about 1/2 the max capacity of a hex? Also, hexes are huge, while you could fill them I think it would require more units than any side has, based on things like the several thousand spacerock was stated to be holding.

So yeah just seemed like an odd tactic.


I think that preventing an enemy from attacking by filling all the space in a hex counts as lateral thinking.
SNfinity
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:39 pm

Would certainly be an interesting Parson sort of tactic, that's for sure :)

But, I mean hexes have shown to hold thousands of troops, and I figure if you actually have that many troops, you likely don't need to worry about the enemy anyway. But that makes it more confusing. It doesn't seem like they're hitting a 'units in hex' cap, so why split your army up into multiple adjacent hexes?

I suppose one possibility is that you keep vulnerable units like siege in a middle hex, with strong armies on either side to act as buffers to prevent enemies doing hit and run tactics on the siege. Sounds kinda weak, but that could potentially be the reason.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:34 pm

mortissimus wrote:But can the enemy enter the hex if it is packed?
Yes; that's probably why hexes are never packed or even nearly packed. When it's not your turn your hex is the only space you have to maneuver in combat, so you want to preserve your ability to take cover, make small retreats, and other battlefield tactics. If your hex were filled so tightly that none of your units could move anywhere then the enemy could stab the units on the edge from across the hex boundary, and when the edge units croak the enemy can fight its way into the hex by walking over the bodies.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:55 pm

Maybe there are a limited number of stacks from a particular side that can be in a particular hex before they start getting some sort of penalty for being overcrowded. Of course, that's still be shown to be a rather huge number, likely in the hundreds of stacks range based on the defense force camped at exposition bridge.
Taikei no Yuurei
Erfabet Supporter!
Erfabet Supporter!
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:28 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Maybe there are a limited number of stacks from a particular side that can be in a particular hex before they start getting some sort of penalty for being overcrowded.
They should get at least the same defensive penalty if part of the crowd is made of enemy units. Whether you are trapped by your own units or enemy units you are still just as trapped, and it's even worse when the units that won't get out of your way are trying to stab you instead of just being unable to move.
Lilwik
 
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 5:55 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby SNfinity » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:16 am

Has an army ever been shown spread out and not on a road? Maybe you actually have to be on the road to get some sort of road-bonus.
SNfinity
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 6:17 pm

Re: A Question(s) of Rules

Postby LordBiscuit » Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:03 am

Not really related to your question, but if you need an additional programmer, an Erfworld-based game is a project I'd be happy to take up.
User avatar
LordBiscuit
Tool + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
Tool + Erfabet + Pins + Print 2 Draw 3 Supporter!
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:27 pm

Next

Return to Everything Else Erfworld

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest