Summer Update - 035

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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby moose o death » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:35 am

cesar is a noble / warlord, promoted to heir. not a royal.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Winged » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:22 am

So this update means

1) parson can not be disbanded.
or
2) parson need not follow rules that he is not aware of, not following these rules however continues to change outcomes for those around him (costs go up and so on)
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby nerf-dweller » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:32 am

Parson can probably be disbanded, but perhaps not in the manner of a unit native to Erfworld. Parson wasn't popped like other units, so I doubt the powers of Erfworld could de-pop him. He might die if disbanded, but somehow I don't think so.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby raphfrk » Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:48 am

I wonder if the current plan actually puts Stanley at risk. What would happen if Wanda was to suggest to the Archons that there wasn't any need to do a veiled unit check when doing the scouting?
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Hatu » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:36 pm

I think the extra length was well worth it; this was an excellent update! We get a good scene, some interesting tidbits on Erworld and the Hammer, and even a potentially interesting plot development. Plus, it doesn't have Pason sulking. Everyone wins! :-)

-H
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:09 pm

EvokeAnObject wrote:I'm pretty sure that a lot of the speculation here is provoked by recognition that the story is devolving into David Eddings' Syndrome. You know, where the protagonist's side is too powerful compared to the antagonist's, draining dramatic tension and causing the story to devolve into a glorified piece of fanfiction where all the favorite characters go on picnic together and hang out.


Unlike Edding's characters, the Erfworld characters are flawed (some deeply), and not all-powerful individually. They make mistakes. They lose.
They might build up an overwhelming army, but it can't be everywhere at once. Sauron had an overwhelming army, after all, for all the good it did him.

And the bigger the army gets, the more sides will ally against them, out of necessity. We don't really have any idea about how many sides are in the area - we know Jetstone, Unaroyal, Translyvito, Charlescomm, Sofa King, Foxmud, Hobbittm, and FAQ so far, plus a bunch of sides who are natural allies.

We don't know how the Magic Kingdom factors in, but we do know that three caster units might be sufficient to change the entire game.

Transylvito only had 29 units committed to the coalition early on. Most of those were probably bats.
Even without archons, they struck with overwhelming force against Stanley's heaviest units. Only Foolamancy saved Stanley's hide.

Their standard tactic of adding bonuses to weak units that they have in massive quantities means that they can trade losses with tougher foes in hit-and-run battles (a tactic that Parson has now, unfortunately for GK, taught to Vinnie), and come out substantially ahead in a war of attrition.

GK's assets include Parson, Maggie, Sizemore, Wanda, Stanley, Ansom, 3000+ decrypted forces, three cities, a couple handfuls of dwagons. It will take them many turns just to replace all the dwagons lost during the battle for GK.
Their weaknesses: no lookamancer, an incompetent overlord, a pacifistic protagonist, an emotionally unstable croakmancer, a timid dirtamancer, an overconfident chief warlord.

There's plenty of opportunity for interesting conflict without Wanda turning sides, and frankly, I hope that she doesn't. I think it's far more interesting to have her as a sinister ally than a declared enemy, and while GK itself sounds extremely well-defended, we really have no idea whether the defenses at other capitals are similar, or even superior to what GK is now - sides could have been building their defenses for 1000s of turns.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Gez » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:26 pm

raphfrk wrote:Stanley managed to tame 2 dwagons in the turn. Thus he would need one warlord every 4 turns or so, assuming he is aiming for 8 unit stacks.

However, for leadership purposes, he could get away with fewer than that. The donut attack only used 3 warlords.

Popped units would have to do something to level up, they probably can only be popped as level 1. The dwagons could be used to cycle them to the front.

And Stanley could use the dwagon-cycling mechanism to cover more than 56-move's worth of wild dwagon harvesting...
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby raphfrk » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:49 pm

Gez wrote:
raphfrk wrote:Popped units would have to do something to level up, they probably can only be popped as level 1. The dwagons could be used to cycle them to the front.

And Stanley could use the dwagon-cycling mechanism to cover more than 56-move's worth of wild dwagon harvesting...


I didn't actually mean "cycle" in that context :). I just meant that the dwagons would take level 1 units to the front and move the leveled ones back.

However, it is a good point. I wonder if the system can be abused in that way to move a rider much more than 56 moves, by changing dwagon after one runs out of move.

If the process works, then he is only limited by how much ground his scouts can cover in each turn.

He could even have more than one city as a centre.

The process would be to use his large number of dwagons + one warlord each as scouts. The could be based in as many cities as possible.

Once they have located a range of feral dwagons, then he can send archons to confirm a safe path for Stanley and finally use multiple dwagons to cover a much larger than 56 turn route to tame them all.

Also, as he gets more dwagons, he can cover more hexes.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby DevilDan » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:08 pm

Changing mounts works in the real world. Cf. The Pony Express. Or am I missing the point of th whinging?
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby raphfrk » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:28 pm

DevilDan wrote:Changing mounts works in the real world. Cf. The Pony Express. Or am I missing the point of th whinging?


Right, but it just means that you get to travel at top speed for the entire trip. If changing mounts was allowed in Erfworld, then potentially, you could move a unit from one side of the map to another in a single turn, if you had the mounts strategically placed.

It was possible in civilsation when using ships. You could transfer units between ships.

If you create a loop, the mounts are recycled.

E.g.

Code: Select all
  A <-- B < ...... -- J <-- K

  |                         ^
  |                         |
  V                         |

  Z --> Y - ...... -> M --> L
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby yay » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:34 pm

MarbitChow wrote:Their standard tactic of adding bonuses to weak units that they have in massive quantities means that they can trade losses with tougher foes in hit-and-run battles (a tactic that Parson has now, unfortunately for GK, taught to Vinnie), and come out substantially ahead in a war of attrition.


i think TV had been using that tactic for awhile now, and also Vinnie only saw Parson in action in the dwagon donut attack. TV has been around the block a few times, and knows the combat system better than Parson in all likelyhood

just because Parson is the perfect warlord doesn't mean all his ideas are original, nor does it mean the skill gap between him and everyone else is enourmous.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Welf von Ehrwald » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:41 pm

yay wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:Their standard tactic of adding bonuses to weak units that they have in massive quantities means that they can trade losses with tougher foes in hit-and-run battles (a tactic that Parson has now, unfortunately for GK, taught to Vinnie), and come out substantially ahead in a war of attrition.


i think TV had been using that tactic for awhile now, and also Vinnie only saw Parson in action in the dwagon donut attack. TV has been around the block a few times, and knows the combat system better than Parson in all likelyhood

just because Parson is the perfect warlord doesn't mean all his ideas are original, nor does it mean the skill gap between him and everyone else is enourmous.


The idea of cyclig the warlords and mounts in and out wasn't the innovative part of the plan. The new idea was that he won the battle by losing all his battles. He attacked a stack, destroyed the siege unit and then pulled out. According to the rules that was a defeat; but that way he only had to attack a part of a stack and didn't fight useless battles with the other units in the stack, saving his strength only for the important aims.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Dwagon_Cwoaker » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:44 pm

However, and I think this is what the point is, is that it was VINNIE who deduced exactly what it was Parson was doing during the initial dwagon attacks on the column's siege weapons. On the other hand, though, they fell for the donut trap, an idea which was the result of Parson's sheer genius. Even Ansom, being the experienced high-end warlord, didn't believe the possibility that the wounded dwagons WERENT in the middle of the dragons, and charged in anyways.

As for the dwagon express idea, based on the same battle where the warlords remained leading the attacks on the column but the dwagons kept cycling out, that fact alone proves the notion that the dwagon express could in theory work to move Stanley or anyone else using the dwagon as a mount across large distances within a single turn. The dwagon express would probably only be usable once/turn (though adding more dwagons to the chain will make them able to move twice/turn), and even then it would probably take a hefty investment of dwagons and upkeep. Still, useful for getting casters and warlords to where they need to be on a moments notice.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby imgran » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:00 pm

Dwagon_Cwoaker wrote:However, and I think this is what the point is, is that it was VINNIE who deduced exactly what it was Parson was doing during the initial dwagon attacks on the column's siege weapons.


Umm, no he didn't. He just deduced that minimally supported infantry and siege winning every engagement against large stacks of veteran dwagons didn't add up and convinced Ansom to dig deeper into the combat reports.

It's important to bear in mind that Parson didn't care whether they figured that out since there wasn't a whole bloody lot they could do about it after the fact.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby SteveMB » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:07 pm

imgran wrote:
Dwagon_Cwoaker wrote:However, and I think this is what the point is, is that it was VINNIE who deduced exactly what it was Parson was doing during the initial dwagon attacks on the column's siege weapons.


Umm, no he didn't. He just deduced that minimally supported infantry and siege winning every engagement against large stacks of veteran dwagons didn't add up and convinced Ansom to dig deeper into the combat reports.


Actually, he did. ("Y'know, if Stanley's guys were just hittin part of a stack and pulling out, those'd count as wins for us Crap, they do some real damage that way. They could beat us by losin.")
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Simons Mith » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:30 pm

MarbitChow wrote:My fear for Wanda is that she'll follow her heart rather than use her head.


Wanda has a heart??
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby raphfrk » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:56 pm

Dwagon_Cwoaker wrote:As for the dwagon express idea, based on the same battle where the warlords remained leading the attacks on the column but the dwagons kept cycling out


The reason for the cycling was due to damage (Parson planned that he would have the entire force healed at dawn). It is possible that the warlords still had some move consumed during each attack.

However, it is still evidence towards it being possible, just not conclusive.

that fact alone proves the notion that the dwagon express could in theory work to move Stanley or anyone else using the dwagon as a mount across large distances within a single turn. The dwagon express would probably only be usable once/turn (though adding more dwagons to the chain will make them able to move twice/turn), and even then it would probably take a hefty investment of dwagons and upkeep. Still, useful for getting casters and warlords to where they need to be on a moments notice.


Right, you still consume move. If you want to travel 5 times the dwagon's range, then you need 5 dwagons.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby MarbitChow » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:06 pm

Simons Mith wrote:Wanda has a heart??

Of course she has a heart. It's controlling, black and twisted, but I think she loved Jillian, in her own evil way.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby DevilDan » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:31 pm

MarbitChow wrote:
Simons Mith wrote:Wanda has a heart??

Of course she has a heart. It's controlling, black and twisted, but I think she loved Jillian, in her own evil way.


And it was a way that Jillian seemed to enjoy.
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Re: Summer Update - 035

Postby Sokrotes » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:23 pm

DevilDan wrote:
MarbitChow wrote:
Simons Mith wrote:Wanda has a heart??

Of course she has a heart. It's controlling, black and twisted, but I think she loved Jillian, in her own evil way.


And it was a way that Jillian seemed to enjoy.

Jillian might have lusted after Wanda, but she loved Ansom more. Thats really what made Wanda snap when the thinkamancy spell was snapped. Now Wanda has gotten Jillian back by taking her lover from her. I personally am very excited to see what will happen when Wanda and Jillian meet again, and Jillian see's what has happened to Ansom. I foresee a very good scene!
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