Book 2 – Page 112

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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lipkin » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:01 pm

bpzinn wrote:
Lipkin wrote:1. Wanda believes the Tools are fated to be united. She wouldn't leave Stanley for Parson.

2. If any caster were to turn to Parson, it would be Sizemore. While Sizemore is uncomfortable with Parson's shaking up of the mores of Erf, I think he respects Parson's goals. And out of all the casters, Parson needs Sizemore the most. Sizemore is the only caster that doesn't have ulterior motives. He's the only caster Parson can trust.

On the topic of Sizemore, just a stray thought I've been having. Anyone else find it weird that Sizemore was able to materialize wooden beams when he made the tunnel through the MK? I guess I had never given much thought to what fell under the purview of Dirtamancy. Building or upgrading a city doesn't deal with just stone and dirt, but cloth, wood, metal, and other materials. Could the revelation that Sizemore needs to reach master class be that everything is the same stuff, and it all falls under Dirtamancy?


I do not think the word "united" means what you think it does. Under your definition of "United" either Charley or Stanley would eventually need to stop being the ruler, so all the attuned Tool wielders could be on the same side. Nothing this far presented in the comics indicates this is a necessary condition for the unity Wanda speaks of. In the same way the tools being united does not mean they should stay in the same hex forever and ever. You can have an effective alliance without entering into an erfworld Alliance (and having all your Turns at the same time) you can be on the same side without being on the same Side. We know from book Zero that you can have more than one turn on the same day. I see the Toolists exploiting that eventually, and Wanda would be more scary as a uber caster with 2+ turns every day than as a mere ruler.

Stop falling prey to outdated erfworld conventions! You are from stupidworld, so start thinking Stupid!

Charlie has essentially declared war on Parson. To join Parson would be to directly oppose another tool.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lipkin » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:13 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:If any caster were to turn to Parson, it would be Sizemore.
Sizemore's relationship with Parson is a bit tricky. We all recognize that Parson is a great guy and maybe Sizemore does too, but Sizemore is a pacifist and that makes him conflicted about almost everything that happens in Erfworld. See Book 1, Page 102.

Lipkin wrote:While Sizemore is uncomfortable with Parson's shaking up of the mores of Erf, I think he respects Parson's goals.
Sizemore is uncomfortable with the killing, and the killing is one of those mores of Erfworld. Sizemore would love to have that shaken up, but Parson doesn't seem to be doing that yet, even though it's clear that Parson would like to stop the killing. Sizemore must be aware that Parson doesn't like killing, but that doesn't change the fact that Parson kills people in vast quantities.


I don't know how relevant your example page is anymore. That was a long time ago, and a lot has happened since. Parson, Sizemore, and Maggie got drunk together for one. Some bonding happened. Sizemore was uncomfortable with digging the tunnel in the MK, which is what I was referring to when I brought up mores. The Magic Kingdom is supposed to be neutral, but Parson is changing that.

And if Parson were to spin off, Sizemore would have two choices. Stick with GK, where his overlord doesn't know his name, and he literally shovels crap all day, or go with Parson where he would be a respected adviser, and his abilities would be utilized to their fullest. I think it's evident that Parson has much nobler goals than Stanley. Jumping ship with Parson would also mean Sizemore would no longer be on a side focused on outward expansion. Any fighting Parson did would be for unselfish reasons. I have no doubt that given the opportunity, Sizemore would turn to Parson's side, even if it took a little coaxing from Janis.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby dwp222 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:31 pm

Once Stanley moves the capital back to Gobwin Knob, won't the portal go back to the previous location in the MK?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:56 pm

dwp222 wrote:Once Stanley moves the capital back to Gobwin Knob, won't the portal go back to the previous location in the MK?

Yes it will, which there is currently an underground tunnel leading directly to it from the fortified one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby drachefly » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:40 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote: Two is that every unit in the capital get the full bonus from the chief warlord, as though s/he was stacked with them.


Pretty sure that was units OF the capital, and it was describing the side-wide CWL level/4 bonus to all units.

What you describe will need a cite, and I don't think there is one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby bwoj » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:33 am

0beron wrote:Quick response to an earlier point. It's incorrect to assume that only the GMTTA can see through the pyramid. Isaac can presumably see in because he's a full blown Eyemancer. His primary class is Thinkamancy but he also has levels in Fool- and Look-amancies. So I would assume he's using Lookamancy to see inside. Meaning he may be the only caster PRESENT who can see in, but any other Lookamamcer walking by could take a peek also.


Issac says "Isn't that fascinating." I doubt he would be find a stone fortification fascinating. Perhaps the pyramid is made out of thinkamancy polarized material like the thinkamancer's temple described in http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_40. If so, that is fascinating, it would certainly point to some discussion Parson had off-page when putting together his orders.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:51 am

bwoj wrote:Issac says "Isn't that fascinating." I doubt he would be find a stone fortification fascinating. Perhaps the pyramid is made out of thinkamancy polarized material like the thinkamancer's temple described in http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_40. If so, that is fascinating, it would certainly point to some discussion Parson had off-page when putting together his orders.

Really? No offense but are we going to be that dense? Obviously what's fascinating is whatever is INSIDE the Pyramid. And the Thinkamancer's temple wouldn't really be all that special if just any Dirtamancer could come along and make it. Maggie is out of Juice, and clearly not even present either (no more Foolamancy since Jack's gone for the moment) so she's not helping Sizemore do this.
So perhaps Issac is seeing the bodies being brought in. Or perhaps the simple act of constructing a hollow pyramid around a gate IS fascinating because nobody has done it. Or there is something else going on inside there that we don't know yet. Point being, Issac has Lookamancy, and a beam is coming from his eyes, so obviously he SEES something interesting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby cheeseaholic » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:03 am

My bet is it's the same material that the thinkamancers use, and that's why he finds it fascinating.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:07 am

cheeseaholic wrote:My bet is it's the same material that the thinkamancers use, and that's why he finds it fascinating.

Ok fine then, let's seriously think about this. Sizemore is building, using the dirt of the MK. So if we follow this line of thought through, that would mean the Thinkamancer Temple is made of MK dirt too....and every other structure built by Dirtamancers in the MK would also have the same properties. See where I'm going with this?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby SNfinity » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:08 pm

Parson isn't gathering corpses from the garrison, he's bringing them through the portal. Look at how he's standing! He's obviously about to turn and carry those two through the portal. There are already corpses on the other side, that's what Isaac finds interesting.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby cheeseaholic » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:10 pm

0beron wrote:Ok fine then, let's seriously think about this. Sizemore is building, using the dirt of the MK. So if we follow this line of thought through, that would mean the Thinkamancer Temple is made of MK dirt too....and every other structure built by Dirtamancers in the MK would also have the same properties. See where I'm going with this?


You're going to dirtamancers can't create or change things? Like, say, making wood beams for a tunnel or making metal for metal golems? That thinkamancers, however, can?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:24 pm

Yes, but you're making a non sequitur. They can change the basic material, but they can't give it magical properties outside of their discipline, the two are very distinct things and one does not equal the other. In order to make a thinka-block pyramid, one out of 2 things must happen/be true:
  1. The actual dirt of the MK is and always was thinka-blocking
  2. A Thinkamancer is helping Sizemore make thinka-block blocks.
Let's examine both possibilities:
  1. If this were true, everything Dirtamancers build in the MK would also become Thinka-blocking. The very MK itself might even be inherently Thinka-blocking. Obviously we know that neither of these is true, so it can't be the dirt.
  2. The Great Minds are staying neutral here, and Issac is actually surprised, so clearly it's none of them. It can't be Maggie either, because she is out of Juice and not even physically present. And it certainly wouldn't be Charlie, for the plethora of obvious reasons. Lastly, we know Sizemore SUCKS at even attempting to learn outside Dirtamancy magic, so he can't possibly have this knowledge/ability of his own accord. Therefore, with nobody helping him, how could he be making Thinka-blocks?
It simply doesn't add up. So if somehow you turn out to be right, I'll actually be upset with Rob for some horribly obvious deus ex machina.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby cheeseaholic » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:52 pm

0beron wrote:Yes, but you're making a non sequitur. They can change the basic material, but they can't give it magical properties outside of their discipline, the two are very distinct things and one does not equal the other. In order to make a thinka-block pyramid, one out of 2 things must happen/be true:
  1. The actual dirt of the MK is and always was thinka-blocking
  2. A Thinkamancer is helping Sizemore make thinka-block blocks.
Let's examine both possibilities:
  1. If this were true, everything Dirtamancers build in the MK would also become Thinka-blocking. The very MK itself might even be inherently Thinka-blocking. Obviously we know that neither of these is true, so it can't be the dirt.
  2. The Great Minds are staying neutral here, and Issac is actually surprised, so clearly it's none of them. It can't be Maggie either, because she is out of Juice and not even physically present. And it certainly wouldn't be Charlie, for the plethora of obvious reasons. Lastly, we know Sizemore SUCKS at even attempting to learn outside Dirtamancy magic, so he can't possibly have this knowledge/ability of his own accord. Therefore, with nobody helping him, how could he be making Thinka-blocks?
It simply doesn't add up. So if somehow you turn out to be right, I'll actually be upset with Rob for some horribly obvious deus ex machina.


"Deus ex machina" is the most overused phrase in this forum. Well, after key lime pie.

If dirtamancers didn't modify the building materials who did? Thinkamancers don't deal with matter, so I doubt that it's them. They modify minds, not stuff. I can't think of a single discipline better suited to creating/modifying stone.

I have no idea where you're getting that the dirt is thinkamancy blocking. If that were true the pyramid would be made out of dirt, not stone. Why would Sizemore destroy the thinkamancy blocking dirt to build the pyramid?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby dwp222 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:54 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
dwp222 wrote:Once Stanley moves the capital back to Gobwin Knob, won't the portal go back to the previous location in the MK?

Yes it will, which there is currently an underground tunnel leading directly to it from the fortified one.



So are you thinking that Sizemore will be building a fort around the other portal too? I'd think he'd need to, if only to keep the Carnies out.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:00 pm

cheeseaholic wrote:"Deus ex machina" is the most overused phrase in this forum. Well, after key lime pie.

If dirtamancers didn't modify the building materials who did? Thinkamancers don't deal with matter, so I doubt that it's them. They modify minds, not stuff. I can't think of a single discipline better suited to creating/modifying stone.

I have no idea where you're getting that the dirt is thinkamancy blocking. If that were true the pyramid would be made out of dirt, not stone. Why would Sizemore destroy the thinkamancy blocking dirt to build the pyramid?

Overused in general perhaps, but not by me. Though perhaps it was too generic a term for what I meant. If this theory is correct, then it would contradict existing evidence. That annoys me.

So let's turn it around. Dirtamancers don't deal with thoughts, they modify stuff not minds. Same argument cuts the other way. If this was something Dirtamancers can do by themselves, why aren't they doing it left and right? The Temple wouldn't be very special then, but it clearly is. If anything, I think it'd take a Link to make material like that, because as I pointed out above, it's not something that makes sense for either class alone.

What I mean with the dirt is that the ground in the MK specifically (not dirt in normal Erf) could be inherently thinkamancy blocking. By transforming the dirt into stone, Sizemore wouldn't be destroying that inherent magical property, simply modifying the physical properties.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Klear » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:08 pm

SNfinity wrote:Parson isn't gathering corpses from the garrison, he's bringing them through the portal. Look at how he's standing! He's obviously about to turn and carry those two through the portal. There are already corpses on the other side, that's what Isaac finds interesting.


Good point! I was open to the interpretation that he's helping to pile the dead bodies and about to place them somewhere behind Maggie, but I think his right leg is already halfway through the portal. If I'm seeing right, that means there are definitely going to be at least a few corpses in MK. He orders them "stacked like cordwood" only to be able to get them to MK himself.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:07 pm

drachefly wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote: Two is that every unit in the capital get the full bonus from the chief warlord, as though s/he was stacked with them.


Pretty sure that was units OF the capital, and it was describing the side-wide CWL level/4 bonus to all units.

What you describe will need a cite, and I don't think there is one.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg shows that his bonus to all units in the capital is 2, and later on he is confirmed to only be level 2 http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F077a.jpg. This would indicate that he is giving his full bonus to all units in the capital, as his side wide bonus would only be 0.5 (likely rounded up to 1) and his hex wide bonus would only be 1.

0beron wrote:Yes, but you're making a non sequitur. They can change the basic material, but they can't give it magical properties outside of their discipline, the two are very distinct things and one does not equal the other. In order to make a thinka-block pyramid, one out of 2 things must happen/be true:
  1. The actual dirt of the MK is and always was thinka-blocking
  2. A Thinkamancer is helping Sizemore make thinka-block blocks.
Let's examine both possibilities:
  1. If this were true, everything Dirtamancers build in the MK would also become Thinka-blocking. The very MK itself might even be inherently Thinka-blocking. Obviously we know that neither of these is true, so it can't be the dirt.
  2. The Great Minds are staying neutral here, and Issac is actually surprised, so clearly it's none of them. It can't be Maggie either, because she is out of Juice and not even physically present. And it certainly wouldn't be Charlie, for the plethora of obvious reasons. Lastly, we know Sizemore SUCKS at even attempting to learn outside Dirtamancy magic, so he can't possibly have this knowledge/ability of his own accord. Therefore, with nobody helping him, how could he be making Thinka-blocks?
It simply doesn't add up. So if somehow you turn out to be right, I'll actually be upset with Rob for some horribly obvious deus ex machina.


You're making an assumption that the thinkamancer blocking material is somehow more special to someone who can transform one thing into another at will than any other thing. I mean, he isn't even keeping within any sort of reasonable conversions based on stupid-world logic. As has been stated before, stuff is stuff, and as far as Erfworld seems to be concerned, that's all there is to it. Flesh isn't any more special stuff than dirt or rocks or plants or anything else is, so why would the thinkamancy blocking stones be? The more likely reason that the temple is special is that they're the only ones that have actually bothered to build something out of it, as opposed to being near impossible to make/find. After all, dirtamancers themselves have been stated to be rare, and one interested in building a thinkamancy blocking structure even more so.

So, while I could very much see an argument for needing a link to make it, it is far from out of the question that Sizemore could make it himself, possibly with minimal effort. The more likely reason that it wouldn't be blocking, is that Parson wouldn't know to ask for it, since we haven't seen any reason for him to know such a thing exists (though he might have asked).

dwp222 wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
dwp222 wrote:Once Stanley moves the capital back to Gobwin Knob, won't the portal go back to the previous location in the MK?

Yes it will, which there is currently an underground tunnel leading directly to it from the fortified one.



So are you thinking that Sizemore will be building a fort around the other portal too? I'd think he'd need to, if only to keep the Carnies out.


I'm saying he certainly could, and will either have to to prevent underground access, or collapse the tunnel he built.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:16 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:You're making an assumption that the thinkamancer blocking material is somehow more special to someone who can transform one thing into another at will than any other thing. I mean, he isn't even keeping within any sort of reasonable conversions based on stupid-world logic. As has been stated before, stuff is stuff, and as far as Erfworld seems to be concerned, that's all there is to it. Flesh isn't any more special stuff than dirt or rocks or plants or anything else is.

Ok I think I've found the heart of the disagreement then. The "Stuff is Stuff" idea is dead wrong. It was a philosophical postulate put froward by...guess who...Stuffamancers! So there's bias right off the bat. But then take a moment to think it through. If all stuff were the same and could be manipulated with equal ability, then there would be little point to many of the classes of magic that are presently separate. By your logic, a Dirtamancer can uncroak units, make brand new units from scratch, make cloth golems, make just about anything. The point of difference branches of magic is that they deal with different TYPES of Stuff and different ways forces influence that Stuff. So sure, Sizemore can transform dirt into stone, wood, and other "earthy things", he can't turn it into flesh or living plants. So what makes you think he could transform it into something that influences G-strings? All of that is outside his ability and understanding as a Dirtamancer.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:51 pm

0beron wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:You're making an assumption that the thinkamancer blocking material is somehow more special to someone who can transform one thing into another at will than any other thing. I mean, he isn't even keeping within any sort of reasonable conversions based on stupid-world logic. As has been stated before, stuff is stuff, and as far as Erfworld seems to be concerned, that's all there is to it. Flesh isn't any more special stuff than dirt or rocks or plants or anything else is.

Ok I think I've found the heart of the disagreement then. The "Stuff is Stuff" idea is dead wrong. It was a philosophical postulate put froward by...guess who...Stuffamancers! So there's bias right off the bat. But then take a moment to think it through. If all stuff were the same and could be manipulated with equal ability, then there would be little point to many of the classes of magic that are presently separate. By your logic, a Dirtamancer can uncroak units, make brand new units from scratch, make cloth golems, make just about anything. The point of difference branches of magic is that they deal with different TYPES of Stuff and different ways forces influence that Stuff. So sure, Sizemore can transform dirt into stone, wood, and other "earthy things", he can't turn it into flesh or living plants. So what makes you think he could transform it into something that influences G-strings? All of that is outside his ability and understanding as a Dirtamancer.


I agree with you that the pyramid isnt thinkamancy blocking Oberon. In fact, cause I must have missed it earlier in the discussion, I have no clue what evidence from the comic points to it as being such. Can you give a short explanation Taikei? This is an interesting convo you guys are having.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:59 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:I agree with you that the pyramid isnt thinkamancy blocking Oberon. In fact, cause I must have missed it earlier in the discussion, I have no clue what evidence from the comic points to it as being such. Can you give a short explanation Taikei? This is an interesting convo you guys are having.

If I might speak on "the opposition's" behalf, there really isn't any evidence persay, and I think they'd admit it. The "evidence" is that Issac, being a Thinkamancer (as well as Eyemancer in general), looks at the pyramid and says "fascinating". They interpret that to mean that he can't see inside, a fact that he finds "fascinating". There isn't really any evidence either way in this particular comic, we are arguing over which is technically possible, and they are suggesting it IS possible Sizemore could make Thinkamancy-blocking stone.
Last edited by 0beron on Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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