Book 2 – Page 112

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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Klear » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:00 pm

Mikalyaran wrote:I agree with you that the pyramid isnt thinkamancy blocking Oberon. In fact, cause I must have missed it earlier in the discussion, I have no clue what evidence from the comic points to it as being such. Can you give a short explanation Taikei? This is an interesting convo you guys are having.


It sprung from theorising why is Isaac finding his lookamancy "fascinating". The obvious answer is that he sees corpses which have already been placed there (I think that's the case - Parson's leg seems to be halfway into the MK), but other explanation could be that the pyramid is blocking his powers.

I'm not sure what other options are there, frankly.

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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby bpzinn » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

0beron wrote:If I might speak on "the opposition's" behalf, there really isn't any evidence persay, and I think they'd admit it. The "evidence" is that Issac, being a Thinkamancer (as well as Eyemancer in general), looks at the pyramid and says "fascinating". They interpret that to mean that he can't see inside, a fact that he finds "fascinating". There isn't really any evidence either way in this particular comic, we are arguing over which is technically possible, and they are suggesting it IS possible Sizemore could make Thinkamancy-blocking stone.


First off, I think what Issac is finding fascinating, are the Barrel O' Corpses in the pyramid. That said, buildings and structures that generate magical effects sounds like what we would call Geomancy or Sacred Architecture. As we know this is possible in erfworld, we just need to decide what branch(es) of magic are necessary. I am guessing for these it was just regular stuff given a Psychic charge by a thinkamancer spending juice to that effect, and formed into a Signamantically appropriate configuration. Excepting the temple, none of them actually DO much of anything besides give minor insights. But if that needed something else, making Stuff with magical properties seems more in line with the Changeamancer branch of Stuffamancy rather than Dirtamancer. Now Dirtamancy may have been used for construction to the Signamancers designs as a shortcut, but I doubt it was strictly necessary.

So I think it would be possible for Parson to made his own Scrying Proof building to be safe from Charlie (and the Great Minds) especially if he finds about the Temple. But has not done so yet. But a pyramid would be the perfect signamancy to use if he did; it was used by Egyptians to hide as well as store bodies and treasures, and is a powerful symbol of secret conspiracies.

Another thing Issac could have found fascinating was the simple fact that the signamancy of the building chosen WAS a pyramid, which is the GMTTA symbol as well. That could bode well for the GMTTA future relationship with Parson.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Klear » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:42 pm

bpzinn wrote:Another thing Issac could have found fascinating was the simple fact that the signamancy of the building chosen WAS a pyramid, which is the GMTTA symbol as well. That could bode well for the GMTTA future relationship with Parson.


I'm convinced that his "fascinating" is in direct relation with his lookamancy spell...
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:58 pm

Yeah, I think the fact that the Temple is (as far as we know) a unique structure suggests that it's magic isn't going to fall neatly into a single school. It must have been either a cooperative work, or even constructed by link. Dirt/Think linked with Sign or Change.

And yes I agree, this is definitely and Occam's Razor situation. Is it theoretically possible the pyramid is Thinka-blocking? Yes, but this goes against our existing understanding of magic and the evidence, so given that we know about the "Barrel-o-Bodies" that's a much more logical assumption for the cause of his "fascination"
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:30 pm

Well, few reasons I think that Issac isn't able to see inside the temple. First off is they way he responding. He didn't just say "That's fascinating", he said "Hmm. Well. Isn't that fascinating..." This, to me, sounds like the sort of response you might give when you have your 'see through stuff' power blocked, as opposed to seeing something that is actually surprising because of it. Another reason is more of an artistic thing, in that his 'see through stuff vision cone' is stopped by the pyramid as it is drawn. Generally, though not exclusively, when drawing something like that the 'colored vision cone' would allow the viewer to at least partially see through whatever is being seen through. Instead it remains 100% solid for us. Finally, he does this -before- we see the shot of Parson about to carry some bodies through the portal, indicating that he likely said that before any bodies were present. Now, it could still be fascinating based on the design of the building itself or something, but it likely isn't because he saw bodies.

Even with all that though, I'm still only about 60/40 as to if he can actually see through it. I'm more interested at the question of if Sizemore can actually make a building that Issac can't see through. Also keep in mind that he seems to be using lookamancy, not thinkamancy, which may have different requirements to block than the more stringent ones of thinkamancy (think lead as opposed to adamantite in most fantasy settings).

Alright, as for the 'stuff is stuff' debate:
Dittomancy is numbers aligned matter (aka stuff) magic and has been shown to duplicate not only arrows, but Units as well. It has also been stated that it can duplicate other spells (indicating possible proof of an E=m*c*c conversion). Also, and this might be the most important to the current discussion, it can duplicate magic items to some degree. The clone of Slately was duplicated with magic items. The jetpack is shown to continue working, as was the foolamancy blocking ability of the magic crown, and the magic blaster. All of which were magic items created by a dollamancer (except the crown, that was created by a hatamancer). Also, the main place I'm drawing the 'stuff is stuff' thing from isn't from a stuffamancer at all. Olive and Wanda use that during their meeting, in which they talk about people, plants, corpses, and uncroaked, all just being 'stuff', and the only difference between them being the presence of life and/or motion.

And of course there is Sizemore creating the wooden support beams (which are about as much like dirt as flesh is from a real world perspective) from dirt when making his tunnel. He also made, though it hasn't really been brought up, some kind of lights. They could just be those little power orbs that we've seen floating around fairly regularly, but they look alot more like small gas lamp or something to me since they look attached to the wall as opposed to simply floating there. And if that is the case, he created a whole slew of things out of dirt.

Also keep in mind that the temple and the devices surrounding it are said to be made of thinkamancy-charged stuff, which seems to show even further that stuff is stuff, since they aren't made out of thinkamancy charged rocks, or metal, or wood, or anything, just a very generic 'stuff'. Now that said, I do have to agree that the thinkamancy-charged part is likely something that sizemore couldn't do without help from maggie, but I'll direct you back to above: He is (potentially) blocking lookamancy, not thinkamancy, which may be easier to block, just like it is easier to block x-rays than it is to block radio waves (well, maybe not easier, so much as different). Sure, you may need thinkamancy charged stuff to block thinkamancy, but you might just need lead or something similar to block lookamancy, and Sizemore can almost certainly create that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:59 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:He is (potentially) blocking lookamancy, not thinkamancy, which may be easier to block, just like it is easier to block x-rays than it is to block radio waves (well, maybe not easier, so much as different). Sure, you may need thinkamancy charged stuff to block thinkamancy, but you might just need lead or something similar to block lookamancy, and Sizemore can almost certainly create that.
That seems highly unlikely. Lookamancy and Thinkamancy are both Eyemancy, so on some level they are the same kind of magic; we are more likely to discover similarities between them than differences, and when they are different we're likely to find that Lookamancy has more brute force power than Thinkamancy because that seems to be how the Erf axis and Fate axis work. Just compare Shockmancy and Croakamancy, Turnamancy and Dollamancy, Flower Power and Signamancy. Even Hat Magic has it's pop a cap maneuver while Carnymancy seems to be far more subtle.

If either of the two were easier to block, I would expect that Thinkamancy would be the easier one.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Mikalyaran » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:05 pm

I haven't given it deep thought but I think Taikei is right and stuff is stuff. At least in it most basic forms. But when something pops or is created it gets tags say. Like flesh, metal, wood, dirt, et cetera. A casters senses give them access to a range of perception based on these tags. Wanda can sense dead bodies because they have the right tags for a croakamancer. Dirtamancers can work with dirt and change the tags. Maybe as they level up they can affect more tags and create different ones? Maybe Sizemore could build blocking materials if he was Masterclass or the dirtamancer version of Grand Abbie/Headmaster. I should put more thought into this. I've been meaning to spend some time thinking about erf magic for a while now so thanks for the discussion guys and goyles. :)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:26 pm

Sorry Taikei, but now you're just going into meta...except doing it backwards. Allow me to address some of your points that pertain to what essentially amounts to author style.
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
  1. He didn't just say "That's fascinating", he said "Hmm. Well. Isn't that fascinating..."
  2. Another reason is more of an artistic thing, in that his 'see through stuff vision cone' is stopped by the pyramid as it is drawn.
  3. Generally, though not exclusively, when drawing something like that the 'colored vision cone' would allow the viewer to at least partially see through whatever is being seen through.
  4. Finally, he does this -before- we see the shot of Parson about to carry some bodies through the portal, indicating that he likely said that before any bodies were present.

Point 1 is a non-issue. There is no difference between the two sentences, it is simply a matter of how a character might chose to say something. Rob wrote it the way he did because Issac, being established as a very curious inquisitive character, is intrigued by what he is seeing. He thinks of the world in questions, which is why he says it that way.
Points 3 & 4 can be addressed by a mechanism that isn't even unique to this comic...it's called dramatic tension and non-sequential events. Authors chose to show us certain things and not show us other things, and do so in whatever order suits the story they are trying to tell. Just because one panel comes after the other doesn't mean they're in strict chronological order, especially when the panels show 2 different places or different perspectives.
And lastly point 2 is just downright wrong. We are looking at a 3D building remember, and our perspective is 2D. Issac is looking at a side of the pyramid that is not facing us. The part "blocking" his beam is actually just the edge of the pyramid.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:28 pm

Well, points 2 and 3 are actually the same point, but you're certainly right, none of them are anything close to conclusive, which is why I said I'm only slightly leaning towards the idea that he can't see into the pyramid, not that I'm committed to it. I really wouldn't be surprised if he can indeed see in and did in fact see the bodies, I'm just thinking it is (slightly) more likely that he couldn't see in or that he saw something interesting in the build itself, as opposed to the bodies.

@lilwik - Yes, but visible light, xrays, and radio waves are all essentially the same thing as well in stupid world, but you need vastly different methods to stop them. I figure lookamancy would be easier to block simply because it functions more along the lines of visible light, while thinkamancy seems more like a radio wave thing.

Edit: Hehe, I wonder if being able to see is natural lookamancy? :P
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby drachefly » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:27 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:
drachefly wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote: Two is that every unit in the capital get the full bonus from the chief warlord, as though s/he was stacked with them.


Pretty sure that was units OF the capital, and it was describing the side-wide CWL level/4 bonus to all units.

What you describe will need a cite, and I don't think there is one.

http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg shows that his bonus to all units in the capital is 2,


No, it says units OF the capital - not AT the capital. For GK, there is no distinction, but it matters for the RCC, since it's composed of units of multiple capitals.


And if hatamancers can make equipment that blocks foolamancy, I'm at a loss for why Sizemore couldn't make dirt that blocks lookamancy.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Morni » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:32 am

Mikalyaran wrote:I agree with you that the pyramid isnt thinkamancy blocking Oberon. In fact, cause I must have missed it earlier in the discussion, I have no clue what evidence from the comic points to it as being such. Can you give a short explanation Taikei? This is an interesting convo you guys are having.


I know i'm late and this might not be relevant.

http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_40

This one was modeled on a gwiffon, made of Thinkamancy-polarized Stuff and imprinted with Signamancy in bright yellow

He stood up, glancing up the hill to the great Temple. It was also made of polarized Stuff, designed long ago (and modified more recently) as a refuge. Cosmic vibrations couldn't penetrate it.


But my two cent.. maybe the shape of the pyramid is enough to prevent Cosmic vibration.. might be natural polarization.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Mikalyaran » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:22 pm

[quote="drachefly"}And if hatamancers can make equipment that blocks foolamancy, I'm at a loss for why Sizemore couldn't make dirt that blocks lookamancy.[/quote]

By that logic anything one caster can do another should also be able to do. Each discipline is has different capabilities and strengths. Also Cubbins says the crown is a "Thinking Cap," A specific kind of item he knows how to make. There might be a similiar spell/skill/ability that lets dirtamancers make similiar materials though.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:11 pm

Yeah, I suppose I said it wrong if I said that the cap blocks foolamancy, instead it enhances the wearer to be able to see through it, which is distinctly different, so I'm sorry for any confusion that might have been caused by that.
drachefly wrote:No, it says units OF the capital - not AT the capital. For GK, there is no distinction, but it matters for the RCC, since it's composed of units of multiple capitals.


I'm not entirely sure what kind of distinction you're trying to make. If you're trying to make one that, for example, only Jetstone units gain the bonus from Jetstone's chief warlord, then I entirely agree. I suppose I said 'all units' but I meant 'all units of that side'. So only Jetstone's units in Jetstone's capital would get Jetstone's CW full bonus as opposed to simply the normal side/hex bonus. If it's something else though... I'm at a bit of a loss.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Oberon » Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:24 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Alright, as for the 'stuff is stuff' debate: [snipped]The jetpack is shown to continue working, as was the foolamancy blocking ability of the magic crown, and the magic blaster. All of which were magic items created by a dollamancer (except the crown, that was created by a hatamancer). Also, the main place I'm drawing the 'stuff is stuff' thing from isn't from a stuffamancer at all. Olive and Wanda use that during their meeting, in which they talk about people, plants, corpses, and uncroaked, all just being 'stuff', and the only difference between them being the presence of life and/or motion.

And of course there is Sizemore creating the wooden support beams (which are about as much like dirt as flesh is from a real world perspective) from dirt when making his tunnel. He also made, though it hasn't really been brought up, some kind of lights. They could just be those little power orbs that we've seen floating around fairly regularly, but they look alot more like small gas lamp or something to me since they look attached to the wall as opposed to simply floating there. And if that is the case, he created a whole slew of things out of dirt.

I don't really have a horse in this race, but it occurs to me that some of the magic items we've seen (the Laurel of Napster being one example) must have been created by casters long ago dead.
Also, Sizemore has often created many non-dirt items whilst building GK cities out of captured cities. Lights, banners, wooden beams, etc., etc. Just take a look at New Gobwin Knob for many examples.
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Yeah, I suppose I said it wrong if I said that the cap blocks foolamancy, instead it enhances the wearer to be able to see through it, which is distinctly different, so I'm sorry for any confusion that might have been caused by that.
It's a minor difference. The wearer is in effect immune to foolamancy. Stated another way, the creator made an object which imbues the wearer with the ability to block any attempt by foolamancy to influence the wearer's perceptions. That isn't so much different than saying that the creator of a building can imbue it with the ability to block all attempts by lookamancy to see into it, right?

Dunno if this helps or hurts anyone's pet theory, I'm just sayin'.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:08 am

I don't figure the cities count too much, because basically anyone with some schmuckers can do that, though it was described as natural dirtamancy if I recall. Still, cities seem more like an edge case as opposed to what we should be taking as basics. After all, they require a city site and schmuckers.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:23 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:After all, they require a city site and schmuckers.
I agree that shmuckers change everything because we have the example of Moneymancy which can apparently create almost anything by burning shmuckers even though it has no Life, no Motion, and no Matter to work with. It makes me think that shmuckers are some sort of stored Life, Motion, and Matter that can be called upon as needed.

On the other hand, Dirtamancy is a kind of Stuffamancy and Stuffamancers are known for creating all sorts of stuff, not just dirt, apparently without shmuckers. See Summer Update 28.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lipkin » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:02 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:After all, they require a city site and schmuckers.
I agree that shmuckers change everything because we have the example of Moneymancy which can apparently create almost anything by burning shmuckers even though it has no Life, no Motion, and no Matter to work with. It makes me think that shmuckers are some sort of stored Life, Motion, and Matter that can be called upon as needed.

On the other hand, Dirtamancy is a kind of Stuffamancy and Stuffamancers are known for creating all sorts of stuff, not just dirt, apparently without shmuckers. See Summer Update 28.

That update makes me wonder what happened to the guards in the MK?
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby drachefly » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:39 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:I'm not entirely sure what kind of distinction you're trying to make.


It was claimed up above that every unit AT the capital gets the full Leadership Bonus from the chief warlord. I was pointing out that the quote provided does not support this. Exact quote: "Klog #4 describes it as 'my leadership bonus applies to all units of my capital, so we know that my bonus is 2." It doesn't say that it applies at full strength. It just says that it applies, and that they can tell what it is without having to stack him.

What we saw in the summer updates was, every unit stacked gets the full bonus. Every unit in the hex gets the half bonus. Every unit of that capital gets the quarter bonus.

If that's basically accurate, and the rounding goes 'nearest, and half rounds down', then they can tell from Parson's providing +1 to the hex and +0 to the side that he's got a full bonus of +2 (if it were +1, he wouldn't provide +1 to the hex, and if it were +3, he would provide +1 to the side). If the rounding rule goes 'nearest, and half rounds up', then they can tell from Parson's providing +1 to the hex and +1 to the side that he's got a full bonus of +2 (if it were +1, he wouldn't provide +1 to the side, and if it were +3 he would provide +2 to the hex). Either way, they can figure out his exact leadership without having to stack him with anyone, which fits what he said above.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:02 pm

[s]I still don't see what distinction you're trying to make. You're talking like you're arguing with me, but you're backing up what I'm saying, which is that he was providing his full bonus to all of his units at the capital.[/s]

Okay, no, I finally see what you're saying. That they could have derived his bonus based on figuring out what his hex bonus is, and what his side bonus is. Only problem with that is that they had no units NOT in the hex to confirm what his side bonus is, which means there would be a margin of error about what his actual leadership bonus is. And that sounds like a needlessly complex way to go about it compared to simply stacking with a unit. It may not say it specifically, but it sure as hell indicates it in fairly certain terms.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby youngstormlord » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:56 am

And here's what Parson is going to do:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-03-17.jpg

Bye bye, Jill.
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