Book 2 – Page 112

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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby drachefly » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:28 am

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Only problem with that is that they had no units NOT in the hex to confirm what his side bonus is.


As recently as page 10, they certainly did. We have no reason to believe that they were the only ones. Also, it's quite possible that the overlord view displays the side-wide bonus even without a specific unit to look at.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Vreejack » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:31 pm

youngstormlord wrote:And here's what Parson is going to do:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-03-17.jpg

Bye bye, Jill.


Lest we forget. But do you really think it will be that simple? Is there even time in this book to deal with Banhammer's heir and her prisoner? The title, "Love is a Battlefield" suggests we will see them again before the end, but it will be a jarring change of scenery.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:40 pm

Vreejack wrote:
youngstormlord wrote:And here's what Parson is going to do:

http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=%2F2011-03-17.jpg

Bye bye, Jill.


Lest we forget. But do you really think it will be that simple? Is there even time in this book to deal with Banhammer's heir and her prisoner? The title, "Love is a Battlefield" suggests we will see them again before the end, but it will be a jarring change of scenery.

Yeah, much as capturing FAQ and sending Jillian back into barbarianhood would be a potentially good move... I kinda doubt it'll happen. It would basically result in GK having no more enemies. Translyvito is basically about to collapse due to either financial strain or internal conflict. Jetstone, while still around, will basically have no forces to speak of. Unaroyal is already gone. Haggar lost a chunk of its forces and heir (though admittedly might actually be in a position to take Jetstone, even with 200ish decrypted defenders). And the other sides... well, we don't really know anything about them, and while their forces are likely relatively intact... Just seems unlikely that one of them would become a major player after all this goes down. So yeah, FAQ is the only real threat on the board at the moment, and it only remains so if they remain a side and not just a single warlord and her stack. If Jillian does manage to turn Ansome, then she'll have a hugely powerful chief warlord (potentially) and could be an even more serious threat. Seems like a good option to leave open.

Well, there is Charlie of course, but with his indirect methods... of course, this might be something he feels strongly enough about to act directly (Some things are more important than money)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Well, there is Charlie of course, but with his indirect methods... of course, this might be something he feels strongly enough about to act directly (Some things are more important than money)
Charlie has already put his cards on the table on the issue of being Gobwin Knob's deadly enemy. He was trying to keep that issue in doubt for a while, but when Parson stepped into Charlie's trap Charlie felt the need to send messages that revealed Charlie's complicity and intentions beyond all doubt.

Now that Parson has escaped with the knowledge that Charlie is the enemy, the best thing that Charlie may be able to do is to send an enormous army of archons, perhaps even all the archons, and hope that their vast combined magical power would be enough to wipe Parson off the face of Erfworld. Parson's side is probably weaker now than it will ever be in the near future. There are probably some remaining members of the RCC that would be willing to pay at least a few shmuckers to see that happen. I know I'm curious to see what 600 archons could do if they all gathered in one place.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Mikalyaran » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Well, there is Charlie of course, but with his indirect methods... of course, this might be something he feels strongly enough about to act directly (Some things are more important than money)
Charlie has already put his cards on the table on the issue of being Gobwin Knob's deadly enemy. He was trying to keep that issue in doubt for a while, but when Parson stepped into Charlie's trap Charlie felt the need to send messages that revealed Charlie's complicity and intentions beyond all doubt.

Now that Parson has escaped with the knowledge that Charlie is the enemy, the best thing that Charlie may be able to do is to send an enormous army of archons, perhaps even all the archons, and hope that their vast combined magical power would be enough to wipe Parson off the face of Erfworld. Parson's side is probably weaker now than it will ever be in the near future. There are probably some remaining members of the RCC that would be willing to pay at least a few shmuckers to see that happen. I know I'm curious to see what 600 archons could do if they all gathered in one place.


No to mention any tricks Charlie might pull with the Arkendish.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lipkin » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:23 am

I still think if Charlie makes an open attack against Gobwin Knob, he'll ruin his business.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:45 am

Lipkin wrote:I still think if Charlie makes an open attack against Gobwin Knob, he'll ruin his business.
You mean because there is no one in Erfworld who can pay the enormous number of shmuckers that he should naturally charge for committing a vast number of archons to a battle against the most dangerous side in existence. In other words, he'd be greatly lowering his prices and perhaps it would take time to convince people that he's worth paying his usual rates again.

I really don't think that's much of an issue. People pay Charlie whatever he asks for because in Erfworld there is always war. Units and sides rise and fall in turns measured in the hundreds, so there will always be sides in desperate situations that will pay anything to save themselves because you can't take your shmuckers with you when you go to see the Titans.

The real threat to Charlie's business is what will happen when an ever-expanding decrypted army sweeps across the surface of Erfworld, needing no upkeep and conquering everything until there are no sides left to fight each other, and that's only if Parson doesn't manage to attack Charlie directly somehow.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:30 am

Makes me wonder just how much money Charlie has. He's making a fortune off his Merc work, and that was said to be only a pittance compared to his thinkamancy work. Even taking into account the upkeep for Archons (Which at 200+ per and 600 around, is a good 120000 a turn! And that isn't even counting his higher level ones), he should be rich. Heck, taking the 120k upkeep a turn into account alone means he must have millions laying around, as he'd be at huge risk of going bankrupt at any moment otherwise, and while his generally patient demeanor could be a facade, he doesn't generally seem to be at the brink like that.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby CDS » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:03 am

Is anyone else hoping that Parson does a 'Godfather' on the RCC and goes for multiple capital attacks at once?

He wont get all of them for example Transylvito strikes me as particularly well defended at this point having a lot of their top leadership in the capital but it would certainly send a message if he got a few of them. Jetstone, FAQ & Haggar being weak targets that Parson potentially knows are weak (FAQ & Haggar having committed such a large forces to the current battle may tip him off). The tactic (if successful) would at best end the side or at worst empty the treasury and add it to GK's it would also deprive Charlie of what he is using to fight GK at the moment proxies, while also further hampering his ability to derive income from the Western Continent.

The tactic will also take every single side in the RCC completely by surprise no one is expecting a number of enemy infantry, warlords and casters just to turn up in the middle of their capital off turn. While the ability to acquire near infallible intelligence on the layout of the Capital with a single decryption further lends to the effectiveness of the force. The only caveat would be that any casters would need to leave the Capital before it was taken to prevent being trapped and they would have to hope that no rulers acted quickly enough to change the capital site via the throne room (if they had another one) before it was taken or they where killed.

The only side I think this tactic would be wholly inappropriate against would be Charlie himself his entire defensive strength is centered on his Capital City as opposed to more traditional sides who need to spread their defenses over multiple sites, he is one of the few people (it would seem) who is aware of Parsons ability to move through the magic kingdom (prior to this battle) and it would be in keeping with his established character to have planned appropriate defensive measures. Parson has the rare advantage of knowing that there are over 700 Golems + an unknown amount of Archons he would need to fight through and I strongly suspect that even if he committed everything he has he doesn't have enough to beat the sheer numbers Charlie has in his Capital. Charlie is also one of the few characters shown to possess the knowledge and the tactical ability to counter Parsons/Wanda decryption steamroller. Also dramatically I think it would be fairly underwhelming for the master manipulator and main antagonist to go down right at the end of the book.

http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... ration.png (Source for Charlies defensive layout)
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby junovalkyrie » Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:36 am

Lilwik wrote:Now that Parson has escaped with the knowledge that Charlie is the enemy, the best thing that Charlie may be able to do is to send an enormous army of archons, perhaps even all the archons, and hope that their vast combined magical power would be enough to wipe Parson off the face of Erfworld.


I can't see Charlie sending all of his archons because that would be one thing that undoubtedly would ruin his business. The two options there would be either to withdraw his archons from whatever conflicts they're currently involved in, or to wait until their contracts are up and decline to renew. The former would ruin his reputation as nobody would be able to trust him not to shirk his contractual obligations in order to pursue his own ends. The latter would both deprive him of much-needed shmuckers for archon upkeep as he waited for them to trickle back in and give GK time to start up the Decryption steamroller again.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lipkin » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:03 pm

Lilwik wrote:
Lipkin wrote:I still think if Charlie makes an open attack against Gobwin Knob, he'll ruin his business.
You mean because there is no one in Erfworld who can pay the enormous number of shmuckers that he should naturally charge for committing a vast number of archons to a battle against the most dangerous side in existence. In other words, he'd be greatly lowering his prices and perhaps it would take time to convince people that he's worth paying his usual rates again.

I really don't think that's much of an issue. People pay Charlie whatever he asks for because in Erfworld there is always war. Units and sides rise and fall in turns measured in the hundreds, so there will always be sides in desperate situations that will pay anything to save themselves because you can't take your shmuckers with you when you go to see the Titans.

The real threat to Charlie's business is what will happen when an ever-expanding decrypted army sweeps across the surface of Erfworld, needing no upkeep and conquering everything until there are no sides left to fight each other, and that's only if Parson doesn't manage to attack Charlie directly somehow.

No, I mean because no one would be willing to pay him if they thought he would eventually join in anyway when things got bad enough. Sides would merely try to argue with him to get off his ass and help, trying to convince him that things really are that dire. Sure, eventually sides would cough up to hire him, but they'd KNOW he was ripping them off right from the start.

And we've seen that the decryption steam roller isn't unstoppable. If anything, the mechanics of Erf itself will stop Wanda from taking over Erf that way. Even if Wanda manages to croak every other living unit on Erf, she has no way to Decrypt them all, and even if she did, new units would continue to pop. These new units would require upkeep, which would be unable to be met, because there are no sides to fight to make smuckers. It would take time to reach this point, but Wanda ruling the world through decryption is a temporary situation at best. And it would never get to that point, because eventually it becomes Erf's first Great War, and every side on Erf becomes involved. GK is a super power, but it's not strong enough to stand up to every other side. On top of that, it's a keystone army, and can be stopped with a single assassination.

My point is, GK is not a direct threat to Charlie's business in the way you described.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:05 pm

Lipkin wrote:No, I mean because no one would be willing to pay him if they thought he would eventually join in anyway when things got bad enough.
The fact that he would join in eventually seems like small comfort if he won't help you now and therefore your side will lose whatever battle you are fighting, probably costing you a major city and an important warlord. It would be even less comfort if losing the battle will be the end of your side. When it comes to a choice between giving your shmuckers to Charlie or letting your enemy claim them from your conquered city, why would anyone choose to let the enemy have them?

Lipkin wrote:And we've seen that the decryption steam roller isn't unstoppable.
If it were unstoppable then there would be no point to fighting it. Instead, it is the biggest threat to the current way of life of every side on Erfworld and therefore the only thing worth fighting.

Lipkin wrote:If anything, the mechanics of Erf itself will stop Wanda from taking over Erf that way.
What mechanics do you mean? That seems highly unlikely without detailed explanation.

Lipkin wrote:Even if Wanda manages to croak every other living unit on Erf, she has no way to Decrypt them all,
It is called "mass decryption".

Lipkin wrote:and even if she did, new units would continue to pop.
Units don't have to pop in cities that Gobwin Knob controls. There will always be barbarians, but when your side has unlimited resources I doubt that the barbarians will pose any real threat.

Lipkin wrote:These new units would require upkeep, which would be unable to be met, because there are no sides to fight to make smuckers.
Cities produce shmuckers, so if Gobwin Knob rules all the city sites in Erfworld it would have more shmuckers than any side in all history.

Lipkin wrote:And it would never get to that point, because eventually it becomes Erf's first Great War, and every side on Erf becomes involved. GK is a super power, but it's not strong enough to stand up to every other side.
It's taking the other sides a long time to realize the implications what is happening, and the longer it takes, the weaker they will be when they eventually unite to fight the ultimate threat. It's hard to be sure when that will be and how huge Gobwin Knob's advantage will have become by the time it happens. Plus, Gobwin Knob has Parson. It seems right now Charlie is the only one who realizes the danger of that situation.

Lipkin wrote:On top of that, it's a keystone army, and can be stopped with a single assassination.
That's also going to get harder the longer they wait.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lipkin » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:09 pm

Wanda cannot decrypt the world, because Wanda cannot decrypt a body she isn't near. Even with a dwagon delay, she cannot reach every place on Erf in a turn. Even if her forces took a city without her, and then moved around the bodies until she got there, that would be a large amount of time before that city's forces are replenished, making it a juicy target. Like you said, barbarians will continue to pop, meaning there are infinite potential sides, because there are infinite potential warlords to start sides.

And that's without addressing the issue of diminishing returns. After a certain amount of cities are captured, the amount of smuckers produced by all cities goes down. So Wanda does not have infinite resources either.

And on TOP of that, there are the casters to consider. The more cities Wanda conquers, the more casters like Jojo they will have to contend with. Barbarian casters with a thirst for vengeance. The magic kingdom would need to fall before Wanda could decrypt the world, and she doesn't have a good way to do that. She's most vulnerable in the MK than anywhere else.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:48 pm

Lipkin wrote:Wanda cannot decrypt the world, because Wanda cannot decrypt a body she isn't near. Even with a dwagon delay, she cannot reach every place on Erf in a turn.

Oh I beg to differ :p I'm certain that with enough Dwagons it'd be totally possible. And given that Dwagons pop randomly at a consistent rate, expanding the side's territory would if anything increase the rate at which they acquire Dwagons.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Pokota » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:53 pm

Except that Dwagons require upkeep and until they're decrypted are loyal to the 'hammer.
zyxophoj wrote:Also, it depends rather heavily on Wanda ... not being Wanda.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby 0beron » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:59 pm

Soooo she decrypts them haha. Or leaves them alive since GK can easily pay their upkeep since so many of their other units get decryted.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:33 pm

Lipkin wrote:Wanda cannot decrypt the world, because Wanda cannot decrypt a body she isn't near. Even with a dwagon delay, she cannot reach every place on Erf in a turn.
So you've proven that Erfworld cannot be conquered in a single turn.

Lipkin wrote:Like you said, barbarians will continue to pop, meaning there are infinite potential sides, because there are infinite potential warlords to start sides.
There aren't infinite potential sides unless there are infinite capital sites. You can't have a side without a capital, and we know that there are finite capital sites because Portal Park is finite.

Lipkin wrote:And that's without addressing the issue of diminishing returns. After a certain amount of cities are captured, the amount of smuckers produced by all cities goes down.
Do you know why that happens? Does it still happen when the units of your side are decrypted and don't require any upkeep? Even if it does, whatever shmuckers they get will go straight to the bank since they are paying almost no upkeep.

Lipkin wrote:The more cities Wanda conquers, the more casters like Jojo they will have to contend with. Barbarian casters with a thirst for vengeance. The magic kingdom would need to fall before Wanda could decrypt the world, and she doesn't have a good way to do that.
That's a good point. The more sides that are destroyed by the wave of decrypted, the more casters will flood into the Magic Kingdom. Ultimately there would be just Gobwin Knob and one remaining other side, so Portal Park would be almost empty. It's not obvious what the casters would do. Would they all turn against Gobwin Knob to make the last rebel side the most magically powerful side to ever exist? I can imagine that. On the other hand, they might see that as futile and choose to join Gobwin Knob because it is obviously the winning team. Maybe the casters will be split by class, with some classes going to Gobwin Knob and some going to the rebels.

Even if every caster in the Magic Kingdom turns against Gobwin Knob, they would still be massively outnumbered by the decrypted army so the outcome wouldn't be clear. It would just cause the battle to be interesting and give Parson something to think about.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lipkin » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:04 am

There is a difference between infinite potential sides and a potential for infinite sides. One means that potential sides will continue to emerge forever. The other means that it's possible for there to be infinite sides in play at any given time. I meant the first one.

Wanda cannot decrypt the world, because she can't be everywhere where new units are popping. And she can't be everywhere these new units are attacking to decrypt units to restore her losses. Ruling the world is like trying to hold Russia in Risk. 11 extra guys at the beginning of every go, but you'll never fucking hold it. If she rules every city, she is literally the only one who can be attacked.

As for the casters, I seriously doubt they would be so slow to act. It would not come down to simply one side vs GK. The MK gossips and discusses. If you don't think Wanda's world domination would be the topic of the highest priority, you've got another thing coming. And with how most casters feel about Croakamancy, and alliance of casters is not hard to fathom. The decrypted would outnumber the casters, sure. But the casters would be vastly more powerful. And that's without links. Just that the casters would be able to use the portals to travel uncontested to where they could do the most damage is enough to be a problem.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lilwik » Sun Jul 14, 2013 3:47 am

Lipkin wrote:Wanda cannot decrypt the world, because she can't be everywhere where new units are popping.
If barbarians are self-destructive enough to attack the world's only side instead of allying with it, then they may just have to croak and stay dead sometimes.

Lipkin wrote:And she can't be everywhere these new units are attacking to decrypt units to restore her losses.
Losses could be restored by popping living units or shipping fresh decrypted units from Wanda's location. If the number of living units becomes a strain on the treasury then they can become decrypted units at Wanda's convenience.

Lipkin wrote:Ruling the world is like trying to hold Russia in Risk. 11 extra guys at the beginning of every go, but you'll never fucking hold it. If she rules every city, she is literally the only one who can be attacked.
And she is also the only one in a position to be a threat to anyone, since she holds all the cities. The barbarians have no allies and no cities, so they are always going to be weak with just barely enough shmuckers to survive. Most of them will prefer to ally with Gobwin Knob rather than be destroyed in a hopeless attack of a small band of units against the whole of Erfworld.

Lipkin wrote:As for the casters, I seriously doubt they would be so slow to act.
They seem to cherish their neutrality. Parson is really pushing that, but there are powerful groups within the Magic Kingdom that support Parson, so that's bound to cause delays before the Magic Kingdom unites against Gobwin Knob. I also doubt that it ever would fully unite against Gobwin Knob. It seems like the world being overrun by decrypted units is exactly what some casters are hoping for, even though it is very creepy.

Lipkin wrote:The decrypted would outnumber the casters, sure. But the casters would be vastly more powerful. And that's without links. Just that the casters would be able to use the portals to travel uncontested to where they could do the most damage is enough to be a problem.
What makes you so sure that the casters would be so powerful? Casters have special abilities that you can't get any other way and they aren't weaklings, but they aren't especially known for brute force either. I'm sure that Parson could work wonders with an enormous army of all kinds of casters, but fighting against Parson the casters would be reduced to following the orders of ordinary warlords. On top of that, links might not be possible if the Thinkamancers are all supporting Gobwin Knob, though they may withdraw their support as soon as Charlie is croaked.
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Re: Book 2 – Page 112

Postby Lipkin » Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:31 am

Barbarians wouldn't have the intel to know that Wanda's side is so powerful. If they find an under-protected city, they are going to attack it. Popped units to replace the decrypted have the potential to turn, and shipping out the decrypted would take time. Time in which a foothold could be built. Wanda's gonna have no interest in hiring barbarians if she can croak them instead.

As for casters, think of what 5 casters in a tower does for the defenses. Now imagine it was 20. Or 30. Or a hundred.

The Thinkamancers are not supporting Gobwin Knob. They are trying to use Parson to kill Charlie. And GK is attacking everything BUT Charlie.
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