Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:15 pm

0beron wrote:I lean slightly towards unlimited though simply because there seems more evidence against limited duration, but I'm not 100% sold on it.
The only evidence that I've seen anyone present for unlimited time is the absence of clocks. Is that all the evidence you mean? That evidence is good, but it has an answer because the time limit is hours long and troop movements only take minutes thanks to the strange way time changes while moving. What about all the evidence for limited time that no one ever answers?

You even edited out the bit about the moving sun from one of my quotes. Was that because it's unanswerable evidence for limited time that you don't want to deal with? I don't think anyone is a blind idiot; I'm just noticing that the posts in favor of unlimited time don't address the problems that the concept of unlimited time has. More precisely, they address the problems that they can address, but don't address all of the problems, which is another way of saying that they ignore some of the problems. If you're willing to do that then you can believe anything you like.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:41 pm

No, I worded it that way specifically, because I meant that there is evidence AGAINST limited time, but not necessarily evidence FOR unlimited time. There's a difference. And that evidence would be the self-contradiction I have mentioned previously.

As for my quoting, I edited for brevity, but I did indirectly address the sun issue anyway because it falls under the category of contradicting evidence. You have made up explanations of why the sun behaves as it does, when frankly it's behavior lends itself to the UNlimited theory instead. That is what I mean when I say you just have out-of-context examples that you twist and shoehorn into a facsimile of "evidence".

And with regard to the debate as a whole, it comes back to my earlier point that neither theory really has adequate evidence. Neither side of the debate is completely addressing all the problems, because neither side CAN. It's fine to have a personal pet theory you support, you just have to recognize that there are some gaps yet to be filled in.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby TheLiontamer » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:46 pm

I'm probably really late on this but I just noticed how old Wanda looks in these trials. I know she was a little more gaunt with Jamie's artwork, and lately she's been wearing a lot more make up than usual but has Wanda found the secret to De-aging? Or maybe she is using signamancy? Perhaps signamancy + being uncroaked Lich style to preserve her good looks??
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby LordAcme » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:51 pm

Rizban wrote:You've got it backwards. It's the night that makes the units rested. Or rather, it's the coming of morning that does it. There was the update where Wanda tortured Jillian all night. Come morning, the wounds healed, the body became rested, and rations popped. It had nothing to do with sleep and everything to do with the end of Night, i.e. the "Rest Phase".


God if only it were that way here. You could get up early, exercise yourself to the point of incapacitation and when the day's turn begins, pop! Fully rested, healed and cleaned with all of the benefits of the workout. And breakfast!

Parson should be all over that, he'd be winning the Mr. Erfworld title by now.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby LordAcme » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:58 pm

TheLiontamer wrote:I'm probably really late on this but I just noticed how old Wanda looks in these trials. I know she was a little more gaunt with Jamie's artwork, and lately she's been wearing a lot more make up than usual but has Wanda found the secret to De-aging? Or maybe she is using signamancy? Perhaps signamancy + being uncroaked Lich style to preserve her good looks??


I think she's suffering from the long-term effects of the heroine buds. Perhaps that counts as persistent poison damage and doesn't heal at the start of turn?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby TheLiontamer » Thu Jul 18, 2013 6:59 pm

LordAcme wrote:
Rizban wrote:You've got it backwards. It's the night that makes the units rested. Or rather, it's the coming of morning that does it. There was the update where Wanda tortured Jillian all night. Come morning, the wounds healed, the body became rested, and rations popped. It had nothing to do with sleep and everything to do with the end of Night, i.e. the "Rest Phase".


God if only it were that way here. You could get up early, exercise yourself to the point of incapacitation and when the day's turn begins, pop! Fully rested, healed and cleaned with all of the benefits of the workout. And breakfast!

Parson should be all over that, he'd be winning the Mr. Erfworld title by now.


If only. Pretty sure Parson would have to level up a lot, and change his unit type. As it is he's a Heavy unit, and when he promoted himself to Field unit the stairs become a lot easier. I'm assuming the addition of move was the reasoning for that.

But is Parson the only Heavy Caster unit? I don't think we've seen any caster that might be a heavy, besides maybe the Strongman Carnymancer, or when Janis flowered powered up she might've become a Heavy?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:03 pm

Sad, was hoping my idea would provoke (in a good way) a bit of discussion. Which boiled down to that sides had a ~16 hour time limit, but natural forces would make it so that the side could do everything they wanted in 16 hours, no more, no less. For most sides, this likely works out to them moving much slower than they otherwise should, but Parson is unaffected by this, so he seems much faster (and is smart and creative in the first place) in comparison. This might create some oddities though, if it is ever realized, as a ruler could simply look up at the sun to get a rough idea of how much longer their turn is going to last, and thus figure out that if they think it'll nearly be over, but it is still before noon, boop is about to go down.

I'd really love more info on time in Erfworld, but I doubt it'll happen unless/until parson makes use of it for one of his plans.

As for the overall discussion, I'm still seeing the '24 hours is a day' thing combined with it is NEVER anyone's turn at night to show there is some kind of limit, though it is so massive that it may as well not be a limit. I mean, I've never played a strategy game where my turn took more than... 5-10 minutes on a regular basis, with some occasional monster turns of maybe upwards of 30 minutes when I'm managing dozens or hundreds of cities/planets and a similar number of armies and need to be very careful about their exact movement and change all kinds of production and stuff. I really can't imagine a game that would take 12+ hours on a regular basis to do a single turn (you know, besides Play-by-Post ;) ). Even Erfworld, living in it and my own very life depending on it I have trouble thinking of that much time to consider a single turn.

And for those people backing the unlimited time per turn theory, I'd really like to hear why it took Frenemy and Quisling multiple turns to figure out the 'riddle' of how to break alliance with Goodminton without the other side getting all of Goodminton's schmuckers. After all, if the ruler had infinite time to consider the puzzle, they should be able to solve it in a single turn (or never be able to solve it under any condition).

Overall though, I do agree that it really can't be definitively answered one way or the other, but I lean towards limited time.

@Oberon - what evidence are you talking about against limited time? Only thing I can think of off hand is the no clocks thing.

TheLiontamer wrote:I'm probably really late on this but I just noticed how old Wanda looks in these trials. I know she was a little more gaunt with Jamie's artwork, and lately she's been wearing a lot more make up than usual but has Wanda found the secret to De-aging? Or maybe she is using signamancy? Perhaps signamancy + being uncroaked Lich style to preserve her good looks??
She's been like that every time we've seen her with Haffaton. It is most likely her signamancy showing how she is being strangled and smothered by Olive, not to mention her addiction to the Heroine Buds.

LordAcme wrote:
Rizban wrote:You've got it backwards. It's the night that makes the units rested. Or rather, it's the coming of morning that does it. There was the update where Wanda tortured Jillian all night. Come morning, the wounds healed, the body became rested, and rations popped. It had nothing to do with sleep and everything to do with the end of Night, i.e. the "Rest Phase".


God if only it were that way here. You could get up early, exercise yourself to the point of incapacitation and when the day's turn begins, pop! Fully rested, healed and cleaned with all of the benefits of the workout. And breakfast!

Parson should be all over that, he'd be winning the Mr. Erfworld title by now.
That assumes there is a benefit to working out in Erfworld, which actually seems very unlikely given the nature of signamancy. Parson seems to gain some small benefit from exercise, but it is trumped by 'promotion' and he might be an exception as opposed to the rule.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:11 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:@0beron - what evidence are you talking about against limited time? Only thing I can think of off hand is the no clocks thing.

It's more the fact that things just don't add up in context, primarily the odd behavior of the sun. If every hex individually has 24 hours, then it's the same thing as time moving uniformly, thus the sun should always be in the same place in every hex.
So this doesn't necessarily do anything to suggest UNLIMITED time, but it certainly goes against 24-hour days.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:24 pm

0beron wrote:No, I worded it that way specifically, because I meant that there is evidence AGAINST limited time, but not necessarily evidence FOR unlimited time. There's a difference.
Time is either limited or unlimited; there is no third option. There's no such thing as evidence that is against limited time but not for unlimited time. If you can explain how there could be a difference, I will be very impressed.

0beron wrote:And that evidence would be the self-contradiction I have mentioned previously.
There is no such thing as self-contradictory evidence. No matter how strange Erfworld may be, it can't be logically inconsistent. The closest thing we can get to self-contradictory evidence is evidence that we don't understand. As far as I'm aware, I understand all the evidence on the issue and none of it seems self-contradictory to me. Perhaps you can explain why some of it seems self-contradictory to you in more detail.

0beron wrote:You have made up explanations of why the sun behaves as it does, when frankly it's behavior lends itself to the UNlimited theory instead.
I don't think I've explained why the sun behaves as it does. All I know is that the sun moves across the sky minute-by-minute and when it gets to the end of its path all the turns need to be ended. Why the sun moves is well beyond us to explain, since we know that Erfworld isn't a sphere rotating in space like Stupidworld. What confuses me is why people who believe in unlimited time don't explain how the sun can not move when Sizemore seems to tell is that it does move.

You need Sizemore to have gotten it wrong somehow, which seems highly unlikely to me, but I'm open to ideas about how it could have happened. Sizemore is an Erfworlder and doesn't think the way we do. When asked about the boundary between the airspace and the city he said that the boundary was the ground, which is a confusing and misleading answer, so Sizemore does answer badly sometimes. The question is, how could he have answered this badly in such a way that unlimited time can be true?

If you can figure that one out, then you also need to figure out why we've seen no evidence of Parson taking advantage of his unlimited time, and no evidence of Parson having reasons to not use it. This is the kind of thing that I would expect to read about in a klog if it were real.

0beron wrote:Neither side of the debate is completely addressing all the problems, because neither side CAN. It's fine to have a personal pet theory you support, you just have to recognize that there are some gaps yet to be filled in.
The only gap I see in the limited time theory is the lack of clocks, which I find troubling, but I think having hours for each turn fills that in pretty well. Maybe units other than Parson also have a supernatural awareness of how much time they have left in their turn, the same way they see stats and hex boundaries. I'm not entirely satisfied with those answers, but at least that gap has something to stick in it. I'd love to see someone fill the gaps in the unlimited time theory half as well.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby ftl » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:26 pm

Lilwik wrote:The only evidence that I've seen anyone present for unlimited time is the absence of clocks.


Well, I'd consider a much stronger thing being sizemore's statements that time doesn't matter. How could time not matter if there was a chance that you run out if it and get your plans cut short?

As far as I can see, the only way for time not to matter would be for it not to be a limiting factor - somehow, the day has to go on long enough for you to do everything you're able to do in a turn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:33 pm

Okay, clearly everyone seems to be missing this and totally ignoring the fact that I have even said it, when it's the biggest contradiction ever, so allow me to make it impossible to miss:
If every day is always the same length, everywhere, why is the sun ever in different places in the sky in different hexes?
The two are impossible to reconcile. The sun supposedly moves at a constant rate, and days are all the same length. Theses two "facts" combined mean that the sun would always be in the same place everywhere. The fact that it is clearly NOT means that something was "lost in translation" when Maggie and Sizemore explained this to Parson. Until that paradox is resolved, we don't know what's happening.
As for the "impossible third option" Lilwik refers to, it is possible that there is some kind of variable time that is a function of natural predictamancy, or perhaps even some different mechanic we/Parson are unable to understand.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby ftl » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:43 pm

The way I find most sensible is to, again, think of what a game is like when I play it IRL. Erfworld is, after all, a world with game-like physics.

Take a game where a Turn represents a single in-game day. Maybe you have Units which have Move representing how many spaces per turn they can move, or some abilities they get to activate a limited number of times per turn, or whatever.

How does that feel to one of the characters inside the game?

Well, obviously, since a Turn represents a day, a character inside the game will see that every turn, the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening. But, curiously, that fact will have nothing to do with what a character can actually DO in one day! Because that's limited not by the "time" in a day, but by other game mechanics - maybe they can move X spaces per day, or maybe a Twoll can fabricate Y items, or you can gain Z experience for training, or whatever. A character in a turn-based game like that will find that they always have enough time - a character with X move can always move X spaces if they wish, and so on. The stuff they do will take more or less time, whatever makes the actions they're able to take fit in to one Turn (i.e. one day). Call it natural predictamancy or whatever. The sun will do what it will in the sky, possibly different things between hexes - it doesn't really matter much, because "time" isn't the game mechanic that's limiting the stuff you can do in a Turn.

That's one way you can get Sizemore saying both that "a day is 24 hours where an hour is 60 minutes where a minute is sixty seconds and a second is how long it takes you to slowly say one-thousand-one", and that "time doesn't matter".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:46 pm

0beron wrote:
Taikei no Yuurei wrote:@0beron - what evidence are you talking about against limited time? Only thing I can think of off hand is the no clocks thing.

It's more the fact that things just don't add up in context, primarily the odd behavior of the sun. If every hex individually has 24 hours, then it's the same thing as time moving uniformly, thus the sun should always be in the same place in every hex.
So this doesn't necessarily do anything to suggest UNLIMITED time, but it certainly goes against 24-hour days.

Ah, well, the answer to that is easy: Time doesn't flow in a hex where there is no unit, and time doesn't flow at the same relative speed in every hex. For example, you have two units in Hex A. Unit X moves to Hexes B, C, D, and E, spending an hour in each, before returning to hex A. Unit X has spent four hours scouting, but unit Y has just spent four minutes standing around waiting for Unit X to get back.

So, this means that it is possible for units (or even the side as a whole/ruler, if the ruler moves around) to have more than 16 hours if they really wanted it. Most rulers though seem to be highly sedentary, which means the ruler only gets 16 hours, but their units may get far more. So I suppose you could get nearly unlimited by having the ruler spend ~15 hours in a hex, then move, then spend another ~15 hours in a hex, then move, etc. until move runs out, but even that could be tricky because it is stated that the sun moves with the unit when it changes hexes unless it is observed entering the new hex.

So the above scout example might get troublesome if the scout goes to more than 16 hexes to explore, spending an hour in each, before returning. But if it can move that far in one turn, maybe it would only take 30 minutes, or 15 minutes to explore a hex properly. This would go with my earlier theory that things take as long as they need to to fit into the 16 hour time limit in Erfworld.

Consider this: If time is unlimited in Erfworld, why would a scout spend an hour exploring, and then report back in only a minute? I mean, if the ruler can wait forever for the report to come in, why do the mechanics make it come so fast? Why do the mechanics make the scout so fast in comparison to the rest of the side? If you had unlimited time, why would hexes -have- different times? Go at different rates? If time is unlimited, it wouldn't mater if one hex was moving faster than another. It really only maters if something needs to happen by a certain time.

ftl wrote:
Lilwik wrote:The only evidence that I've seen anyone present for unlimited time is the absence of clocks.


Well, I'd consider a much stronger thing being sizemore's statements that time doesn't matter. How could time not matter if there was a chance that you run out if it and get your plans cut short?

As far as I can see, the only way for time not to matter would be for it not to be a limiting factor - somehow, the day has to go on long enough for you to do everything you're able to do in a turn.


Or the reverse. You do everything you need to do in one day.

0beron wrote:Okay, clearly everyone seems to be missing this and totally ignoring the fact that I have even said it, when it's the biggest contradiction ever, so allow me to make it impossible to miss:
If every day is always the same length, everywhere, why is the sun ever in different places in the sky in different hexes?
The two are impossible to reconcile. The sun supposedly moves at a constant rate, and days are all the same length. Theses two "facts" combined mean that the sun would always be in the same place everywhere. The fact that it is clearly NOT means that something was "lost in translation" when Maggie and Sizemore explained this to Parson. Until that paradox is resolved, we don't know what's happening.
As for the "impossible third option" Lilwik refers to, it is possible that there is some kind of variable time that is a function of natural predictamancy, or perhaps even some different mechanic we/Parson are unable to understand.
It's relativity. You spend an hour in one hex, but only 1 minute has passed in another. A day is 24 hours in any given hex, but a day is more than 24 hours if you keep switching between hexes. It's really no different (well, reversed, but otherwise no different) from relativity in the real world. It is a very difficult concept to wrap your mind around at even its basic level, much less its more complex ones.

Also, I've put forward the variable time thing about 3 times now as the third option :P Or rather, variable speed. You get a limited amount of time, but you'll always move fast enough that that time is enough.

FTL seems to be getting on my idea now too :)
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:51 pm

ftl wrote:Well, I'd consider a much stronger thing being sizemore's statements that time doesn't matter. How could time not matter if there was a chance that you run out if it and get your plans cut short?
That's a good one. I'd forgotten that, but I think that can be explained pretty well. In the context of the conversation Sizemore was talking about moving around within your turn and trying to relieve Parson of obvious confusion. Sizemore is really saying that as long as it is still your turn time doesn't matter. Naturally time becomes important if you want your turn to last longer than it can, but Sizemore isn't thinking about that because that's not what Parson is talking about and Erfwolders would never even consider trying to have a turn go beyond the time limit.

ftl wrote:As far as I can see, the only way for time not to matter would be for it not to be a limiting factor - somehow, the day has to go on long enough for you to do everything you're able to do in a turn.
I think it can do that simply by being several hours long. Awkwardly it seems like it would become more and more of an issue the more sides there are in the battlespace, but maybe there are never so many unallied sides in a single battlespace that it becomes a problem, or at least Sizemore has never heard of it ever being a problem. Or perhaps it could only be a problem if there were too many sides in a single hex.

ftl wrote:That's how you can get Sizemore saying both that "a day is 24 hours where an hour is 60 minutes where a minute is sixty seconds and a second is how long it takes you to slowly say one-thousand-one", and that "time doesn't matter".
But it doesn't allow for Sizemore saying that the sun moves "four minutes further along in the sky." What would that mean in your interpretation, where the movement of the sun isn't determined by time?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby ManaCaster » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:29 am

0beron wrote:1) I don't envision it happening very often if at all because you'd need a Kingworld in order to pull it off...

The theoretical required situation happened at least once during the Battle for Gobwin Knob. In the beginning of the final turn of the battle, most of the Coalitions forces were outside the walls. Since it was currently Gobwin Knob's turn, it would have been impossible for them to enter the garrison zone, and it looks like time was going at about the same rate for them as for Gobwin Knob. If Stanley had been there, that would have been the perfect time to use such a strategy. So no, you don't necessarily require a Kingworld ambush to lock a side out of your garrison zone. I will agree that such a tactic probably goes against Erfworlder instincts though.

TheLiontamer wrote:But is Parson the only Heavy Caster unit? I don't think we've seen any caster that might be a heavy, besides maybe the Strongman Carnymancer, or when Janis flowered powered up she might've become a Heavy?

He's the only confirmed heavy caster, but there are several casters that are pretty big compared to their fellows. Ace Hardware for example. It has been mentioned that it is possible for Warlords and Casters to randomly pop with some given special (though it is also implied that said special has drawbacks to make things balanced), like Archery or Flight.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lipkin » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:18 am

Sizemore said that the sun would be 4 minutes forward in the sky. He didn't say that the speed of the sun was consistent from hex to hex. We only know that the sun moves, not how it moves, or how quickly.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:37 am

Lipkin wrote:He didn't say that the speed of the sun was consistent from hex to hex.
Actually, he said that for a moving unit time passes normally, which surely means that the sun moves at the same rate in each hex he visits. If the sun were to speed up or slow down, that would be highly abnormal time.
Sizemore: "I mean for a unit that is...that is moving, time passes normally, but not relative to units in other hexes."
Lipkin wrote:We only know that the sun moves, not how it moves, or how quickly.
We know that a full day is 24 hours within a single hex, so that gives us a very good idea of how quickly it moves. It's practically the same speed that it moves in real life. This is directly stated in Summer Update 29, so there's really no doubting it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Oberon » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:00 am

0beron wrote:If every day is always the same length, everywhere, why is the sun ever in different places in the sky in different hexes?

Fuck, why didn't I use the size tag in my sig.
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:08 am

Oberon wrote:Fuck, why didn't I use the size tag in my sig.

Maybe because you have a tiny bit of common sense in your thick head and know that the quote in your sig is obviously out of context and I was right anyway, so you don't wanna draw any additional attention to your rudeness?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Oberon » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:36 am

fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck
How using capslock wins arguments:
Zeroberon wrote:So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.
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