Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby drachefly » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:37 pm

0beron wrote:If every day is always the same length, everywhere, why is the sun ever in different places in the sky in different hexes?


Imagine a large number of long skinny balloons each filled with the same amount of water, hanging from the ceiling in a hexagonal grid. The balloons are hexes. Water is time. The ceiling and floor are dawn and sunset.

Squeeze a balloon, and more or less water can be at a given height in a given balloon... but that doesn't change the total amount of water in the balloon.

Peculiar, but not contradictory.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Huh interesting way of putting it, I like it. I'm not sure that's what's happening either though, because as I'm reading it Sizemore seems to imply the sun still moves at a predictable rate, which shouldn't be the case whenever "squeezing" occurs, right?
EDIT: And for that matter, I'm not sure "one-thousand-one" would work in that case either.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:48 pm

0beron wrote:Sizemore seems to imply the sun still moves at a predictable rate, which shouldn't be the case whenever "squeezing" occurs, right?
If the squeezing in the analogy is what happens when you step from one hex to another, then that is the one time that the sun moves at a strange rate, and sometimes even backwards. We only solidly know a few things from Sizemore in Summer Update 29:
1. If you wait in any hex the sun moves across the sky at the real-life rate from your perspective. (People who think time is unlimited, please note this one.)
2. If you enter a hex and aren't observed in that hex then the sun will have the same position in the new hex that it had in your previous hex, meaning if two units enter the same hex but don't encounter each other the sun doesn't necessarily appear in the same position to both of them.
3. If you enter a hex and are observed in the new hex, then as you pass the hex boundary then the sun will appear to jump to wherever it already was in that hex. (I guess there is some natural Predictamancy involved in determining whether you will be observed.)
4. From the perspective of other hexes, a unit that is moving from hex to hex has time moving faster than normal. This means that a Lookamancer sees the unit moving with unusual speed, and the sun moving with the same unusual speed, and also a scout will return quickly instead of forcing people to wait. The details of this effect haven't been explained yet; we don't know how much faster time goes, for example, but what we do know doesn't seem to cause any problems.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:57 pm

But therein still lies the problem. If the day is of a fixed length, and time marches onward at a predictable rate (one-thousand-one, and so on) then the suns should never get out of sync. Do you see my quandary?
It should be either:
  • Day has a fixed time limit, but how quickly the time flows varies (like the "squeezing" in Drache's example) In this example, we wouldn't have "one-thousand-one" and the sun would move at inconsistent speeds.
  • Time moves at a regular pace, so "one-thousand-one" works, but a day can last for as long as we wish.
Neither of the above seems to happen in Erfworld, and it can't be both at the same time either.
Also, I'm not sure I like this idea of the sun in the same hex actually appearing in different places to 2 different units (your #2 point). That just doesn't sit right, and more importantly I think it's a stretch that the comic doesn't allude to at all.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:32 pm

0beron wrote:Do you see my quandary?
No, I don't. I only see the rules as given by Sizemore which imply a strange but not illogical experience for units doing various things in Erfworld. It seems that the only problem is you being unable to adapt your concept of time to the way time works in Erfworld. It would clarify your quandary if you could tell a little story that seems to follow the rules that Sizemore describes but causes those rules to lead to two distinct outcomes that can't both be true. A reduction to absurdity like that would help people who can't yet see what you see.
0beron wrote:Day has a fixed time limit, but how quickly the time flows varies (like the "squeezing" in Drache's example) In this example, we wouldn't have "one-thousand-one" and the sun would move at inconsistent speeds.
That's the one. Time does flow at varying speeds, but that doesn't really change how the sun moves across the sky; it's only time that changes. To a unit inside a hex with faster time, time seems normal: the sun still takes the same number of one-thousand-ones to get across the sky. The trick is just that each one-thousand-one is faster because everything is faster, and when everything is faster it feels like nothing is faster. That's why Sizemore says that for a moving unit time passes normally.
0beron wrote:Also, I'm not sure I like this idea of the sun in the same hex actually appearing in different places to 2 different units (your #2 point). That just doesn't sit right, and more importantly I think it's a stretch that the comic doesn't allude to at all.
Parson: "It jumps backwards when I enter the hex?!"
Sizemore: "Of course! To you. Because you traveled and were observed from that hex. If you weren't observed, you would find the sun in the same position as the previous hex."
Somehow being observed is what matters. So if you travel through an occupied hex but the occupant is asleep and never observes you, the sun stays in the same position for you as it was in the previous hex, no matter what position the sun was at for the sleeping unit.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:10 pm

Then I'm not sure I can help, because I have reduced the problem/contradiction into the most succinct and simple terms possible and still very few people seem to be getting it, so I don't think there's more that I can do. But perhaps the way you worded something has given me a proper frame to explain it, so I will try one last time.

Counting "one-thousand-one" is an action. You are suggesting that time can be "squeezed" to change the duration it takes you to perform this action. It then follows that the duration of any action can be compressed or expanded. This then in turn means that a unit can do an infinite number of actions by compressing each one into infinitely small durations, or take an infinitely long duration to accomplish a single action. So while technically there is still limited "time", the result is UNlimited time from a unit's perspective.

For my best attempt at a narrative, I offer this: The RCC is outside GK city at the end of Book 1, except Stanley stayed and is in the hex. It is GK's turn, and Parson decides to filibuster the coming battle by reading the entire contents of the library aloud, over and over again, with at least one other unit in the hex observing him, and Stanley agrees not to end turn. Then say the unit observing him counts the seconds "one-thousand-one".
Based on this theory we're working on now, two things may happen:
  • The unit counting finds their words inexplicably and infinitely drawn out against their will, so that they will not exceed the number of one-thousand-ones in a day.
  • The unit counts normally, and the sun eventually sets, without the RCC ever getting their turn.
I'm not sure that I've done a good job formulating an example, but my second paragraph raises an interesting possible "reconciliation".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:21 pm

This exact same anamoly occurs when moving very fast too.

If you and another person start stopwatches at the same time, and you stay on earth while the other person gets on a spaceship which tours the solar system at nearly the speed of light for a year, then when they get back, their stopwatch will have a hugely different time than your own. Theirs will have only advanced a fraction of yours, they will think they've only been gone for under a year, and they'll not have aged any. Heck, you can even get this to happen with supersonic jets and the like, though the difference is fairly minimal.

So, you have two people for whom time passed at a consistent rate for them, but when they met again, had actually experienced two different amounts of time. This is exactly what is happening in Erfworld, except in reverse, because the scout who is moving experiences much more time than the one who is standing still. So, this is how the sun can be in different places in the sky in different hexes, while units can maintain a count of 'one-thousand-one' being a second and adding up to minutes, hours, and days.

Basically Erfworlder have an entirely intuitive grasp of relativity, and so they understand why it is that a day is 24 hours, but they can experience far more than 24 hours in a day.

Going back to the above example with the space ship, the sun jumping around, is basically the equivalent of the space traveler adjusting their clock/stopwatch to match up with time as it is back on earth.

In fact, I think that in my above example, the sun would in fact appear to jump around the sky to the space traveler at rates entirely inconsistent with simple passing of time thanks to moving so fast that the light from the sun hits the traveler in odd ways.

0beron wrote:For my best attempt at a narrative, I offer this: The RCC is outside GK city at the end of Book 1, except Stanley stayed and is in the hex. It is GK's turn, and Parson decides to filibuster the coming battle by reading the entire contents of the library aloud, over and over again, with at least one other unit in the hex observing him, and Stanley agrees not to end turn. Then say the unit observing him counts the seconds "one-thousand-one".
Based on this theory we're working on now, two things may happen:
  • The unit counting finds their words inexplicably and infinitely drawn out against their will, so that they will not exceed the number of one-thousand-ones in a day.
  • The unit counts normally, and the sun eventually sets, without the RCC ever getting their turn.
I'm not sure that I've done a good job formulating an example, but my second paragraph raises an interesting possible "reconciliation".

I see what you're getting at, and it is a different problem from the one I've been trying to deal with. In this case, I think the answer is that one of the following would happen:
  • Parson would find himself speaking at lightning speed
  • Parson would somehow find himself incapable of going on for long (think how fate clobbered him for trying to use that scroll)
  • Stanley would change his mind and end turn
There may be some other possibilities in there as well. This however seems to be an outside case. Basically no one in Erfworld would ever do this, so it has never been a problem. The system as described works fine as long as you don't go around purposefully trying to break it, and Erfworlders seem content to not do that (some form of Titanic thinkamancy? Like Duty?). It's only when you throw Parson into the equation that you start getting trouble. I suppose added to the above list might be that it would be simply impossible to ever convince Stanley to do that. He would never be willing to sit around for hours and hours while Parson simply read books from a library, in the same way that Parson would never pick Stanley up and strangle him to death. The seemingly infinite Loyalty bestowed by the summoning spell wouldn't allow it.

Edit: Another possibility: It would work. Parson just found a hack by extending a turn past its time limit and into night. This could mean that RCC never gets its turn at all, or gets it at night, or some other oddity like it gets two turns at dawn.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:27 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:There may be some other possibilities in there as well. This however seems to be an outside case. Basically no one in Erfworld would ever do this, so it has never been a problem. The system as described works fine as long as you don't go around purposefully trying to break it.

That's part of my point, I don't think we're going to have a complete understanding of how time REALLY works unless Parson tries to exploit it. I think you illustrated my thought process very well. There are some gaps in the current explanation because they come from an Erfling perspective, and those gaps won't get filled in unless Parson explores it.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:30 pm

0beron wrote:You are suggesting that time can be "squeezed" to change the duration it takes you to perform this action. It then follows that the duration of any action can be compressed or expanded. This then in turn means that a unit can do an infinite number of actions by compressing each one into infinitely small durations, or take an infinitely long duration to accomplish a single action.
Compressed or expanded by whom and by what means? The only way we know of to compress time is by moving from hex to hex, and that only compresses time by a certain amount, not infinitely. (Perhaps the arkenshoes could compress time infinitely? We've never actually seen them work.) We've never heard of any means to expand time, and we've certainly never heard of anyone compressing anything infinitely. Where do you get these ideas?

0beron wrote:Based on this theory we're working on now, two things may happen:
  • The unit counting finds their words inexplicably and infinitely drawn out against their will, so that they will not exceed the number of one-thousand-ones in a day.
  • The unit counts normally, and the sun eventually sets, without the RCC ever getting their turn.
I think you've gotten it exactly right. No matter how you think about it, unlimited time always leads to crazy stuff like this that has no connection to Erfworld as we know it. That's why believing in unlimited time is quite fantastic.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:44 pm

Lilwik wrote:The only way we know of to compress time is by moving from hex to hex, and that only compresses time by a certain amount, not infinitely [....] We've never heard of any means to expand time, and we've certainly never heard of anyone compressing anything infinitely. Where do you get these ideas?

To the first part, says who? You're ok with making up the idea of compressing time, but when someone points out an odd consequence of that, suddenly you have a problem and want to say it has constraints? As for the second part, you're raising a non-issue. Duh we haven't heard it on the comic, it's one of the theories being discussed as a model to "explain" the behavior of time and unit actions, so stop trying to deflect the argument.

Lilwik wrote:I think you've gotten it exactly right. No matter how you think about it, unlimited time always leads to crazy stuff like this that has no connection to Erfworld as we know it. That's why believing in unlimited time is quite fantastic.

Again, what I said just turned into a big "woosh" that went over your head, because that is NOT what I said. But I did address that specifically, we haven't seen strange time behavior because Parson hasn't tried to exploit it. The absence of evidence isn't evidence by itself, because Erflings all "play by the unofficial rules".
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:00 pm

0beron wrote:You're ok with making up the idea of compressing time, but when someone points out an odd consequence of that, suddenly you have a problem and want to say it has constraints?
No, I'm not okay with making up the idea of compressed time. It is highly strange and would be very unlikely if it weren't a known fact. The only reason I accept compressed time is because it has been revealed to us in the story. If it hadn't been revealed, I'd never make it up. The only constraints I want to put on it are the limits of the amount of compression that we know about in the story. We haven't seen infinite compression yet, so just like time compression in general, I'm not okay with making it up.

0beron wrote:As for the second part, you're raising a non-issue. Duh we haven't heard it on the comic, it's one of the theories being discussed as a model to "explain" the behavior of time and unit actions, so stop trying to deflect the argument.
So you're saying that you're okay with making up bizarre things far removed from anything we have evidence for. That may be a non-issue for you, but I prefer not to let my speculation wander off into fantasy worlds of my own construction. Erfworld as Rob Balder has constructed it is better than anything I could create.

0beron wrote:The absence of evidence isn't evidence by itself, because Erflings all "play by the unofficial rules".
In other words, Erfworlders all respect the time limit, even Parson, so whether it is a hard physical law or just a convention, the time limit still exists. Since the consequences of trying to go past the limit are hopelessly strange, the odds are that it is a hard physical law.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby 0beron » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:08 pm

Okay forget it I give up, you are honestly being obtuse and seem to be skipping over half of what I say, even the bits you quote, because you object to things out of context. I don't even know at this point what theory you believe, but feel free to continue accepting it, I won't even bother with this thread anymore.
However I suppose I have to say congrats, because you are the first forumite I've given up on trying to debate with besides Ohberon, and pretty much everyone has given up on him so that doesn't count.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:31 pm

0beron wrote:Okay forget it I give up, you are honestly being obtuse and seem to be skipping over half of what I say, even the bits you quote, because you object to things out of context.
Yeah, I think you've got me figured out well. I must admit that I've never properly understood where you were coming from. Belief in unlimited time has always seemed very strange to me and I haven't seen anything to clarify it, a bit like I'm reading a different story than you are. I haven't been skipping what you say; I've just not been properly understanding it.

0beron wrote:I don't even know at this point what theory you believe, but feel free to continue accepting it, I won't even bother with this thread anymore.
There's still only two options: limited time or unlimited time. I think at one point you said something confusing that seemed to be trying to say there was a third option, but I didn't find that very well explained at all, especially since it's logically impossible.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby ftl » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:53 pm

If I understand what you said before, Lilwik, the theory you believe is that time is limited but the limit is high enough that it never comes into play unless someone deliberately stalls. In that case, it's true that "time doesn't matter" because you never need to think about it if you're just playing the game normally.

Is that a correct summary of the theory you support?
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:07 pm

ftl wrote:The theory you believe is that time is limited but the limit is high enough that it never comes into play unless someone deliberately stalls. In that case, it's true that "time doesn't matter" because you never need to think about it if you're just playing the game normally.
Yes, that is a good, simple theory. It's easy to understand and has no strangeness except for the strangeness that is unavoidable because it comes straight from the story. I have the impression that people who believe in unlimited time feel that they need it to explain some problem that doesn't actually exist, as though the story somehow indicated that the length of a turn were unlimited and we need a theory to explain how that can be possible. But as far as I'm aware, nothing in the story has ever implied that turn length is unlimited. Perhaps it comes from trying to apply the unlimited turn lengths of turn-based strategy games to Erfworld.

Edit: Of course, I also think that Sizemore didn't really mean that time never matters. Time clearly matters sometimes, such as in all of Book 1 when Parson was struggling to learn the system before the big battle. I think it's more likely that time simply ran out each turn before Parson could finish studying the system rather than Stanley deliberately ending the turn while Parson was in the middle of something. It seems that the chief warlord is usually the one who decides when it is time to end turn, and that makes the most sense, plus I doubt anyone in Gobwin Knob was in any rush to get the enemy to the wall.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:17 pm

I think the reason people think that the time in a turn needs to be unlimited are... threefold that I can come up with.

1. Sizemore stated time doesn't matter.
2. Grasping relativity as far as troop movement goes is difficult, especially when combined with the solid 'one-thousand-one' counting concept
3. They're thinking like stupidworlders.

The first one is the easiest to deal with: People in the real world have said that before, but they meant in a particular instance or with some kind of restraints. So Sizemore didn't mean 'time doesn't matter anywhere every in any case' he meant 'time doesn't matter in regards to what we're talking about'.

The second one is understandable, it is hard to grasp. Look at my last post where I try and explain it using real world relativity (which is equally hard to understand), even going so far as to include how the oddity of the sun moving erratically happens in the real world (albeit in a slightly different way)

The third one is what seems to be the big friction between 0beron and Lilwik. Oberon is thinking like a Stupidworlder and coming up with a particular instance in which limited time doesn't work. Lilwik is thinking like an Erfworlder in that he is following the conventions, and so the case in which limited time doesn't work doesn't come into play. So if there is a time limit, but it never comes into play, is it still a limit? If humans have some curse on them that says they'll die the day they turn 200 years old, but we all die of old age 100 years before that, is it really an issue?

So, honestly my stance remains the same as Lilwik's in that I think there is a time limit (it may be hard or soft), but no Erfworlder has ever reached it, or ever will without intervention from a Stupidworlder. Thus while there is a time limit, there may as well not be until Parson starts mucking around with things. I'm honestly surprised he hasn't delved into this a bit more, but maybe he was too drunk to remember the conversation about time, and so doesn't realize the possible implications. Also, Erfworlders may be entirely unaware of the fact that they have some kind of limitation... actually, something just popped into my head. Didn't -someone- make a comment once about making it just in time before a turn ended? Was it maybe Jillian while she was on her trip to pick up new units from old FAQ? Was that maybe an indication that she nearly reached the time limit because of her huge movement and being unobserved the entire time?

Oh, and another tidbit that I'd intended to bring up before was when Ansome mentioned how he was tired and sore from riding dragon relays to meet with Stanley regularly from the front lines. That would seem to indicate that he had a longer day than he might have otherwise. That would just show relativity in effect though, which is good to see.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:53 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Lilwik is thinking like an Erfworlder in that he is following the conventions, and so the case in which limited time doesn't work doesn't come into play.
That seems fair. I do strive to think like an Erfworlder, and I haven't even noticed that a case in which limited time doesn't work has even been presented.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Didn't -someone- make a comment once about making it just in time before a turn ended? Was it maybe Jillian while she was on her trip to pick up new units from old FAQ? Was that maybe an indication that she nearly reached the time limit because of her huge movement and being unobserved the entire time?
That would be very interesting in the context of this discussion. I wish I knew what page you meant. The closest I can think of is Book 1, Page 7, but unfortunately in that one Jillian was worried about her move limit, not her time limit.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Ansome mentioned how he was tired and sore from riding dragon relays to meet with Stanley regularly from the front lines. That would seem to indicate that he had a longer day than he might have otherwise. That would just show relativity in effect though, which is good to see.
For convenience, that is Summer Update 42.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Taikei no Yuurei » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:57 pm

Yeah 0beron presented a very good case for where -something- weird would happen. Parson reads aloud from a book (or series of books) while a unit in hex with him counts (one number a second), with Stanley agreeing not to end turn until Parson tells him (Don't even need Parson reading, just a unit counting). Eventually the unit's count would get to 86400, at which point according to Sizemore a day should have passed, night and all. But according to what we've been told, it is no one's turn at night. Thus something weird would have to happen. The turn would end of its own accord, something would somehow force Stanley to end turn, Parson will have achieved some kind of hack, or something else. If done when in battlespace, it might even result in the other side losing their own turn as Parson forces it into night before they get their turn.

There are alot of possibilities there, but the point is that if turns are limited, the above would cause something weird to happen. If turns are unlimited, how can '24 hours in a day' and 'no ones turn at night' coexist? So, we've found breaks for both theories, but both breaks more or less require you to be acting differently from how Erfworlders normally act.

As for Jillian's comment, I think it was near the beginning of her introduction in book 0, if she was indeed the one I remember it from. That said, looking at the page you linked, I can't help but notice something weird. In the first panel, the shot is upwards, with the sun behind a cloud, making it look like... well, not quite noon, but not later than 2-3 in the afternoon or so. Within what amounts to about a minute's conversation though, the sun has sunk all the way to halfway through sunset. Now, there was a bit of implied movement in there that might have made that 5-10 minutes, but still not the hours that the sun seems to have moved.

It could just be a trick of perspective on the first shot, as the last four or so do seem to be showing a fairly gradual sunset over time, but if not, it is very interesting. It would lend credence to the unlimited time theory, with the sun simply going along at a pace that is slow enough that it won't get too far based on the world's predictamancy, then racing along to set for the end of turn. But I still don't see that theory jiving with 24 hours in a day, unless a 'day' is simply a term for 24 hours (sort of like how a 'year' is a term for 365 turns, as opposed to anything important happening at that interval), as opposed to a day/night cycle with a turn and a day (24 hours) not being linked, instead it is a turn and a Day (day/night cycle) that are linked.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lilwik » Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:10 pm

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Yeah 0beron presented a very good case for where -something- weird would happen. Parson reads aloud from a book (or series of books) while a unit in hex with him counts (one number a second), with Stanley agreeing not to end turn until Parson tells him (Don't even need Parson reading, just a unit counting). Eventually the unit's count would get to 86400, at which point according to Sizemore a day should have passed, night and all. But according to what we've been told, it is no one's turn at night. Thus something weird would have to happen. The turn would end of its own accord, something would somehow force Stanley to end turn, Parson will have achieved some kind of hack, or something else. If done when in battlespace, it might even result in the other side losing their own turn as Parson forces it into night before they get their turn.
That whole situation is only meaningful in unlimited time. There would be no weirdness or anything interesting at all with limited time. If time is limited then units are free to do whatever they like without causing problems, because when their time is up their turn is over, no matter what they are in the middle of doing. If they have the last turn of the day, then their turn ends when the sun sets, and the sun sets according to its motion across the sky whether Stanley agrees or not. So all of that filibustering and counting would be totally pointless under limited time, while under unlimited time it is a proof of how unlimited time is absurd. I thought it was strange that 0beron was presenting a proof that unlimited time was absurd.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:So, we've found breaks for both theories, but both breaks more or less require you to be acting differently from how Erfworlders normally act.
That's only if you assume that someone takes action to end the turn every day. That might happen, but I suspect that a chief warlord or ruler only gives an order to end the turn when they want to end the turn early. When a side is at peace and there is no reason to worry about turns, no one orders the turn to end; they just let the sun rise and set the same way it happens in Stupidworld. That's speculation, but it's usually safe to assume that Erfworld is like Stupidworld in many ways when there's no evidence suggesting otherwise.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:As for Jillian's comment, I think it was near the beginning of her introduction in book 0, if she was indeed the one I remember it from.
Jillian's introduction is Episode 27 and I checked all the way up to Episode 30 without finding anything really good, but there are a few interesting references to turns and how they work. They explain how the breaking of a day into turns is Natural Predictamancy, and once Jillian waits until the sun sets then declares that the turn has ended, as though the sun were telling her when it would end rather then choosing the end herself.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:Within what amounts to about a minute's conversation though, the sun has sunk all the way to halfway through sunset. Now, there was a bit of implied movement in there that might have made that 5-10 minutes, but still not the hours that the sun seems to have moved.
Yes, I take that page to mean that when a side ends its turn early the sun rushes across the sky instead of moving at its normal rate. Therefore ending your turn early can give you a day that is shorter than 24 hours. I take this as evidence in support of the idea that no one actively ends a turn unless they are in a battlespace and have strategic reasons for doing it, so most days are 24 hours, and the fact that ending your turn early shortens the day is just an exception to the rule that Sizemore didn't think to mention to Parson.

Taikei no Yuurei wrote:But I still don't see that theory jiving with 24 hours in a day, unless a 'day' is simply a term for 24 hours (sort of like how a 'year' is a term for 365 turns, as opposed to anything important happening at that interval), as opposed to a day/night cycle with a turn and a day (24 hours) not being linked, instead it is a turn and a Day (day/night cycle) that are linked.
I would bet huge qualtoos against that, except that I'm sure somewhere in the story the word "day" has already been used in a way that proves that theory is incorrect.
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Re: Inner Peace (Through Superior Firepower) – Episode 068

Postby Lipkin » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:05 pm

A second is "one-thousand-one."

A minute is 60 of those.

An hour is 60 minutes.

A day is 24 hours.

But all those measurements of time are relative, as they are different in each hex. Turns cannot have a time limit, become time moves differently in every hex. Unless you want to declare the hex that the Overlord occupies to be the true time. But then what happens when an overlord is croaked, and his heir is in another hex?

A turn is not a day. The sun moves as it will until night, when it sets.
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